Our guest is Daryl Homer, three-time Olympian (2012, 2016 and 2020) who earned a silver medal at the 2016 games in Rio, becoming the first U.S. men's saber fencer to win an individual silver at the Olympics since 1904. We talked about his fencing origin story, the secret to his consistency and how he's changed in the 13 years since he made his first senior team.
In this episode of First to 15, we're joined by Daryl Homer, three-time Olympian and 2016 Summer Olympics silver medalist in men's saber.
First to 15: The Official Podcast of USA Fencing
Host: Bryan Wendell
Cover art: Manna Creations
Theme music: Brian Sanyshyn
EPISODE 5
[INTRO]
[00:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell, and in this show you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in the sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. So whether you're an Olympian or a Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:00:40] BW: Today's guest is three-time Olympian Daryl Homer. Daryl represented Team USA on the 2012, 2016, and 2020 Olympic teams. At those 2016 games in Rio, he earned a silver medal, and in doing so became the first US men saber fencer to win an individual silver at the Olympics since 1904. Daryl has also been a fixture on the senior world circuit for more than a decade. This year, 2022, he qualified for his 11th Senior World Team, which means he gets to represent Team USA at the Senior World Championships in Cairo, Egypt. Daryl, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:15] DH: Hi, how are you guys?
[00:01:17] BW: Yeah, thanks so much for being here. It's a real treat and an honor to have you here. And I would like to ask how people first got involved in fencing, and I read an interesting story about you saw fencing in the dictionary, and you saw some fencers on TV and then the rest, of course, is history. So, what was your origin story? And what was it that made you say, I kind of want to try that?
[00:01:40] DH: Yeah, I mean, I first read about fencing, I think, when I was five in a children's dictionary. There was a picture of the guy in the, on guard position. Really cool. And then at the time, I know there going to be a lot of young listeners, but there was a movie The Parent Trap that had like this really famous fencing scene that I like, wow, that looks really cool. And there was a Mask of Zorro with Antonio Banderas, the Ninja Turtles, all those things. But I think the final culmination of fencing for me was seeing an AT&T ad, promotion of the 2000 Olympic games. They were trying to have for Olympic Games. They're trying to pitch them for the New York City and they had Peter Westbrook, Aki Spencer, fencing New York Yellow Cab, and it was just super well done. And the crowd is clapping after and the movements were really cool. I ran to my mom and said, “Hey, remember, I wanted to try that out.” Yellow Pages found a club and that's where I started.
[00:02:31] BW: So, telling your mom you want to try this out and actually getting hooked on it are two separate things, right? There are people who try a new activity, whatever it is one time and then say, “Okay, let's try something else.” So, what connected with you in that first lesson?
[00:02:47] DH: Yeah, so my first fencing practice was at the Peter Westbrook Foundation and I just remember being in a room of people that look like me, and it seems really familiar. But then also at the first feeling of picking up the weapon, I felt like it was like a wand or they just felt like something really empowering for me. I think I lost my first match, like five zero or something. But it was just really cool to get out there and just swinging around a little bit. I think that was really where the love for the sport grew. So, I actually started in foil, which the saber probably three to four months after. And that's when I really, really, really just fell in love with it. I think at the time I was playing baseball, but dropped baseball and fencing became my main activity from 11 years old.
[00:03:26] BW: What caused the switch from foil to saber? Because I was interested to see that when I was doing some research for this episode, that the foil was the first weapon that was in your hand, but obviously, you've had so much success and saber so that was the right choice. But what was that switch? What was the catalyst for that switch?
[00:03:42] DH: Yeah, so the interesting thing is I actually had been – part of what the foundation did was they paired you with league coaches. So, I actually had been selected to enter the foil program, was like a men's foil switch. There weren't many mentors at the time. The whole thing is that Peter being a saber fencer and Keeth Smart, Ivan Lee, Aki, all those guys being saber fencers, and being like the kind of like the faces of foundation made it to like all like the cooler kids fend saber. So, I remember I went to Peter and said, hey, I think it was 11 or 12. I said, “Hey, I really, really want fence saber.” He’s like, “Saber people hit really hard”, because I was really small and skinny. I was like, “I really can do it.” He was like, “Okay, well, they hit really, really hard.” But I just wanted to do it, because that's what the cool kids and the older kids are doing pretty much and I wanted to be closer them as a kid. That's what got me into saber.
[00:04:33] BW: So, you were talking about Peter Westbrook and that's for those who don't know, he's one of the legends in fencing. Six time Olympian and done so much for the sport. When you think back on the fact that you had, for lack of a better word, access at such an early age. What did that do for you and your career?
[00:04:53] DH: Yeah, to be honest, I think my interactions with Peter as a child were pretty limited. I had much more interactions with Keeth Smart, Ivan Lee, Yury Gelman who was working with the foundation as well. But just being around like Yury preparing Keeth, Ivan, Aki for the Olympic Games and me being able to see that day to day, watched it and sometimes take lessons right after them, because we had the same coach was really, really powerful. And being able to be around Peter, Keeth, Aki, people who are been Olympians in the highest level, kind of let me dream that I could be there one day too, right? And I think that was like the biggest thing, like, just being able to look at results because the old FC, they used to put all the results in the wall. So, you'd see Keeth got fifth and Budapest, Hungary. I would go home and dream that I was like in Budapest, Hungary and like go watch tournament, fencing, achieving the same type of results. And I think just having the access of being around those guys, specifically, as I got older, and having a coach, like Yury and having Peter as someone who can, like oversee all of that was really, really powerful.
[00:05:54] BW: Yeah, that's so cool. It's interesting to think of now that we have like almost instant results that you were looking at a piece of paper on the wall saying, “Oh, wow, fifth place in this huge tournament.” That's awesome.
[00:06:06] DH: And they'd highlight all the fencers from the club who'd went to the tournament. So, yeah.
[00:06:10] BW: That's so cool. You've also said in interviews that when you first started at that tournaments, like Y-12 tournaments and that type, you were pretty far down at the bottom, maybe even like close to last place. But then by the time you were like, 16, 17, you were earning medals at the junior and cadet world. So, what was it that took you from local tournaments, not getting medals to being on the medal stand at the world stage?
[00:06:37] DH: Yeah. I mean, I think it's all process, right? Learn how to win. I mean, I was very new to the sport when I was young, huge adjustment period. But by the time I was 15, I really started to work in a way that was even more than Yury, my coach at the time, more than Yury demanded of me. I wanted to work for myself. A lot of my good friends now who are coaches kind of laugh at the fact that I think what – I went to school in the city, and a lot of them came from Jersey. So, what I would do is we always wanted to like laugh when we got to practice. I would get to practice, like 45 minutes before they did and do footwork and then when they got there, we'd all laugh and we'd practice together.
But I just kind of work that into my routine that I just got there early and was really intentful about the things I was doing, and focused on even when I was doing the wrong things, but I just tried to do them the best way I could and I gained a lot of confidence through doing that. So, I would say, it was really just like deliberate practice. Little things, like if I knew my steps were too big, I would try to fit four tiny, tiny advances in a really, really small box. Keep doing that over and over and over again, for an hour maybe. But that's how I really got better and I just tried to copy the best fencers and steal things from them where I could. If it worked, it worked. If it didn't, it didn't. But that was always my kind of ammo.
[00:07:53] BW: It must have worked, because by the time you were turning 19, I think the summer you turn 19 was your first Senior World Team. What did it take to make that step up? Because I've heard other fencers say that the jump from junior to senior is pretty massive. So, what was it for you that did the trick?
[00:08:09] DH: Yeah, I mean, I can even start before that. So, you know, cadet, I was third at the World Championships, and there’s always leaps in my career, I realized, but I was third at the World Championships. The next year I got completely smoked at the junior worlds my first year. Completely smoked. I was like, “Wow, this is an adjustment period.” To show you like how cyclical these things are, I don't even think most people remember this. But I went to the Budapest World Cup and Junior World Cup the following year and got completely destroyed in the top eight, so you could top four. I got destroyed to a point where I was like, “Wow, like that was really, really bad.”
The interesting thing is, I think three weeks later, there was a Senior World Cup and I went to the Senior World Club with my first Grand Prix internationally and actually made top 16 at it. There was like fence really freely, there was no pressure. Right after that, I went to the NCAA championships and won that, and then I went to the junior worlds and got third, and that was like kind of a catalyst for me kind of stepping into this role as a senior fencer.
After that, I think I made a 32 or 16 or something like that after, that's how I solidified the spot in the team. But I will say that the team prior was very strong. It was a team that meddled in Beijing. So, it was a really, really big honor to train with those guys and to learn from those guys. I spent the summer before Beijing with them every day training while they were in New York City, pretty much like willing to grab laundry for those guys if they needed. If they needed five extra bouts, I’d send five extra bouts. But it was just an amazing experience to learn from them there. Also even, my relationship with Keeth, I was able to like as he was in Beijing and I see how insane this was at the time. I was like writing him about like, “Hey, what do you think about this bout?” And stuff like that, and he respond, right? What is wrong with your bout? When did you lost the play? How did you come back against positive on these circumstances? We'd be having those conversations.
So, I'm very, very grateful that I just had the chance to learn from those guys while I was really young. Again, I was surrounded by Keeth, Ivan, Tim Morehouse, Tim Hagamen. All these guys who are like really, really big legends. Jason Rogers, huge name on the sport, I can train with every day and just kind of look at and then I go, I'm sorry, as well, but just look at and pull kind of insights from them and take them through my career.
[00:10:15] BW: That's so cool. That's great that you had those types of role models to look up to. So, that kind, to me, explains how you got there the first time and then what's amazing is you – as we said, at the start, is you kept coming back to the Senior World Team, every single one since 2009, which is just this ridiculous level of consistency. To me, that's like making it to the World Series 11 straight seasons. It's crazy. So, how have you managed to stay in the top four for so long?
[00:10:45] DH: It's a system, right? I understand how the points work. I understand how my process works. I understand how to manage season. I really just try to focus on that. I normally start the season, at the first or second Mac, right? You know, I generally try to build up from there and by the World Cup season in May, I'm generally trying to peak into – April, May, I'm trying to peak into World Championships and that's just kind of been my framework, and that's the way I've worked. Now, I probably incorporate a bit more rest in the season. But yeah, I've just kind of built this system and I take it very, very seriously. I really just try to – I try my best every time. I try to give my all every time.
[00:11:22] BW: So, now you're on the 2022 team and if you think about the 2022 version of Daryl Homer, how does he compare to the 2009 Daryl Homer?
[00:11:33] DH: Oh, wow. I take way more detail oriented. At 18, you can eat a sausage and peppers at the knack while you can – but now, I have my diet. I follow my diet pretty closely. I'm probably a bit more balanced. I'd probably relied more on my physique back then. I'm relying equally on my physique, my mind, my tactics, my experience now. So probably, a lot more confident. I think when I was young, I had a bravado about myself, that allowed me to perform a lot. But now I just have a lot of confidence and I know I'm there, and I'm just here to get the job done, and enjoy the competitions that I have left.
[00:12:11] BW: Absolutely. I want to talk about some of the cool places that you get to go as a fencer. I think that's to me, one of the appealing parts about the elite level is some of the experiences you get to have and the places you get to have them. So, like this season alone, Italy, Spain, Korea, Hungary, Poland, Georgia, France, so is that life of travel, and everything as glamorous as it sounds? Or are these like 100% business trips when you go to some of these places?
[00:12:41] DH: It shifts as you get older. Now, I have more resources to stay a little longer if I need to or I'd like to. We have our general circuit, which is like, the Madrid, the pat of Warsaw. But then every once in a while, we get to go to a place like Cuba. We go to Havana. We go to Santiago, Chile, and like, those are the experiences sometimes where it's like, I've got like – I've gone to Madrid every year since 2018, so I'm pretty familiar with Madrid flows. I have friends there now. Paris, same type of thing. But we were able to touch down these like different destinations, sometimes. It's really, really empowering and impactful in a way too.
[00:13:15] BW: Yeah, and one of those destinations I have to imagine was Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, that you don't go to every year. So, obviously the 2016 Olympics, where you picked up the silver medal, what was working at that tournament, and what really clicked for you, in that experience that helped you get the medal?
[00:13:34] DH: I think, Yury and I have been together for 16 years at that point and we had a good understanding of – and we've gone through multiple breakthroughs, that level, the junior level, eventually the senior level and then getting to that Olympic medal. So, we were just in a really good place. It was the right timing, first of all, my talent. I was young, I was strong, I was very confident. I just come off the World Championship medal the year before. So, I just really understood the tactics of the time of the field really well. And we prepared really, really well. We came up with different solutions for different tactical situations I was having problems with, and then most importantly, I was very mentally focused on the line for that competition.
I think that's like, to anyone listening, I think, as many lessons you want to take or as many as much workouts you want to do, the main thing about fencing is like how mentally strong you are and how you can mentally prepare for competition. I think that is like the thing that I know now at 31 that I did not know at 18. I didn't know that six to be frank with you, right? It's really just a recent realization where it's like, I have to make sure my mental mindset is always in the right place and I have to really manage that and be purposeful about that.
So, I think on that day, my mentality was perfect. I think it, if I'm going to be transparent with you, I think I've meditated morning and evening, every day for two months before that. I was like super locked in. I had mantras. I had things I was saying to myself. It was a very – I got to know myself a lot through that experience and what it took to achieve.
[00:15:05] BW: So many of these Olympic sports, it's four years of work for potentially, a couple of minutes, right? Because there's no pools.
[00:15:15] DH: A couple of minutes, exactly.
[00:15:17] BW: Yeah. So, you've got to be locked in, right? In a single elimination tournament, where your first bout could be your last, how important is that mental game, to make sure you're really focused and not heading home a few minutes in?
[00:15:34] DH: I mean, it's the most important thing. And I say that because I remember 2014 World Championships, I was in amazing shape, amazing shape and I lost in the 32. I think it was up 9-3 or something like that. I lost in the 32. The Olympics actually, I was in very good shape. And up ninth in Tokyo, I was up 9-3 and as mentally could not handle the pressure, and that was like a problem I've had leading into that games. But that experience actually was the one that really had me flipping – I sat with myself and say, “Wait, this is the thing you have to focus on the most, because you can do all the training you want. But if you go to the competition, your mentality isn't right, it doesn't look you've been training.” I just understood that.
Another thing I'll say is that, I think you have to find that for yourself. I think one of the things that I moved away from 18, I did everything myself, right? As you get older, as you get more experience, as you get more resources, you start to like, outsource different things to different people. So, I think one of the most interesting things that happened after Tokyo, was I was in the form of the sports psychologist, and he was saying the right things to me. But I'm listening to it and I'm saying to myself, like, “Wait, you know yourself better than anyone. You have to commit to the process of sitting with yourself to figure this out. You can use people as resources, but no one else can come the process of you having to explain to someone else, who you are, and how you function, it's just worth it for you to just do it yourself and sit with yourself and lock in with yourself in a way where you solve this issue, you solve this problem.” So, I think that was something that was really interesting for me to think about post the games.
[00:17:12] BW: Yeah, I think that's really interesting and valuable insight as well. Switching gears a little bit. We're recording this actually, just a few days after you picked up two gold medals at the Pan American Senior Championships in Paraguay, gold in the individual and a gold in the team event. And one thing that strikes me from that, in addition to your great fencing was a photo you posted of yourself with some members of Cuba's team at that event. So, tell me what the backstory is there and how you have been able to kind of connect with other people in our zone, other fencers in our zone, at these international events?
[00:17:48] DH: Yeah. I don't know if a lot of young people know this. But Cuba has a really storied fencing program. I grew up again, looking at Peter, Steve Ramada, and all these guys talking about the Pan Am Games and having to compete with Cuba. It’s awesome. Every time I'm able to see the Cubans in competition. They don't get to compete very often because of government financial difficulties. I don't know. But they literally compete once a year and it's usually Pan Am games, or the Olympic Games, right?
So, I have a rapport with two of the top Cuban guys based on the Pan Am Games we met there. We had a lot of conversations. So, it was just really cool to see him again and see the full team and watch those guys. It's such a storied program. It's such a like a beautiful place. Havana was a really beautiful place to visit that anytime I can support and see those guys compete and do well, I'm always really happy to. So yeah, it was a really, really, really cool experience. I'm actually getting messages from them, as I'm back here. Yeah, it's an awesome place, it's an awesome story. When I see it, when I know how much those guys train and how much they work, and just the situation they're in, there’s just so much respect.
[00:18:53] BW: That's so cool, and the fact that you can kind of inspire them and be inspired by them at the same time. I mean, I get the sense that at these events, it's not – because in my head, it would be like, “Okay, USA is going to be huddled together and focused on just their own performance at the tournament.” But it really seems like there's this international exchange between the countries that makes it more than just about who's going to come out on top.
[00:19:19] DH: Yeah. Again, I've known a lot of these guys in the world, let's say in even in Europe for 16, 17 years. So, there are people you form really close friendships with, like Max Horton, who retired from Germany and I are very, very good friends. Some of the French foil team and I are very, very good friends. We started traveling to the Cadet Junior World Championships together when we were 15 or 16. So, you do build these really, really long-lasting friendships. Actually, the women's saber coach, [inaudible 00:19:46], he and I have been friends since we were 11 years old. For him to be the head coach for women's saber and be traveling with us and still be competing, it's like a really cool experience.
[00:19:57] BW: That's awesome.
[00:19:57] DH: But a lot you have really, really long relationship with the sport which is one of the things I love about it the most.
[00:20:04] BW: Yeah, that's so cool and your long tenure and your success in the sport has also yielded us some really cool partnerships. You've worked with brands like Toyota and Nike and Ralph Lauren, and a ton of others. How did those opportunities come about? And do you have any advice for a younger fencer who wants to, in the future, maybe find that type of support to, to help them on their fencing journey?
So, first of all, I studied marketing in school, so my mind works in that way when it comes to telling stories and I think that the biggest thing for any young athlete or for any athlete looking to monetize their craft is just to have – to tell a story, right? To do it creatively, to do it in a different way, but to be really authentic and true to yourself. I think what I pride myself on and what the partners that I've been able to work with, and the relationship we formed, is that I'm able to authentically show who I am through their platforms, as opposed to creating a fictitious image or something like that.
I think the main thing is to know who you are, and really to commit to the craft, and frankly, I have worked the day after I graduated college. I started working at an ad agency. So, I just say like, if it happens, great, but it's not like the most important thing. I think sometimes we get consumed about the sponsorships or the media, and I think that's the bonus, right? It's really the fencing achieving the results and then those things will come. That's how I always look at it.
[00:21:30] BW: Yeah, and the fact that you have this marketing background also explains why on some of these campaigns, you are even listed as the creative director, so it's truly not just them coming to you and saying, stand here, and smile. It's truly like your –
[00:21:45] DH: Yeah, it’s collaboration.
[00:21:47] BW: That's so cool. That kind of ties into my next question, which is the way that you've inspired different communities, and you've been super passionate about bringing fencing into disadvantaged communities, especially. So, this is such a broad question, but I think it's important. How do we get more young people of color into fencing into the sport?
[00:22:07] DH: Yeah, I mean, I think we make it more accessible, right? I mean, it doesn't matter what background people come from. Every fencer I know, either a family member goes to them, they stumbled upon it like some random way. But it's never – we don't have sustainable access points for the sport. I think that once we solve that, once we find a way, is it that we partner with YMCA. Is it like once we find a sustainable way to get this sport in people's hands, that's how people like, every kid wants to play with a sword. This should be the most popular sport in the world. Who doesn't want to play with swords? But I think it's one making it more – getting sustainable entry points. But I think also, it's like, what does the version of fencing look like where it's like – what are the skills you can learn, like basketball, right? You can pick up a basketball, you learn life skills to being on a team, you can go to the park alone and do it. But what's phase on the fencing that we have for that? It's so club driven and it's so expensive. It's very hard to do it, even when you want to do it sometimes.
I'll be honest with you, the amount of people I meet in New York who are like, I wanted to fence or my kids who really, really want to fence. Where can we do this? I just think it's about building the access points out.
[00:23:21] BW: Yeah, definitely. Opening as many doors as we can.
[00:23:24] DH: Yeah. And then the supporting piece like, the foundation was incredible. Because I think we paid $50 a year to fence, every Saturday. From there, if you're seen as talented, you were paired with a coach, and that was covered as well. But it's like, how do we create more opportunities where people can try the sport, be put into the sport and given a chance to succeed in the sport, and invested in to be in the sport.
[00:23:49] BW: Yeah, that's well said, and you're right, that has to happen, to be able to grow this sport that we love. So finally, I want to talk about your legacy in the sport, because you're you've talked about some of your role models, like Keeth smart, and Peter Westbrook and a bunch of others. Obviously, they've made such an impact on you and part of their legacy is actually Daryl Homer, right? Your success. So, what legacy do hope that you'll leave on the next generation of fencers?
[00:24:16] DH: Yeah, I mean, I think, one, I'd like to show people that it's possible to be successful on the highest level. But I think beyond that, I'd want people to see like their ups and downs in this journey, too. If you’re always on the journey, you’ll always end up on top. I definitely lose a lot more than I think I should, that definitely at times, it's like, it's painful, but it's all the process. I think so many of our athletes stopped so young. We stop at 23, 24 because of financial realities in the US when it comes to fencing, but I'd love to see people say later in the sport, I'm really, really, really proud of my generation. Because if you think about it, like Garrick Meinhardt, Miles Chamley-Watson, Alexander Massialas, Lee Kiefer, Courtney Hurley, we've been a team together since we're been cadet. See us also going has been really, really powerful. I'm just grateful for the opportunity I've had to compete on a high level. I'm grateful that I've been able to inspire youth. There's a whole crop of young African American men in men’s saber and women in women’s saber that kind of looked to me and like, “Hey, how do we do this?” That's powerful that I can mentor the other kids at the foundation and that even on the national team, I kind of have this veteran role where young guys like Mitchell, come to me with all these questions. But it's just nice to have been able to do that and to experience that.
[00:25:40] DW: We're talking about your legacy, but obviously you're still writing it and so thanks so much for taking a moment. I know is a busy time for you and best of luck in Egypt at the Senior World and beyond. Daryl Homer, thank you so much.
[00:25:54] DH: Thank you, I appreciate you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[00:25:56] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the Strip. Bye.
[END]