Many high school fencers assume NCAA fencing is only for A-rated athletes and Junior World Cup contenders — but Rob Charlton says that mindset leaves opportunities on the table. The Wellesley College head coach and Five Points Fencing Academy coach explains how college rosters are built, why needs vary by school, weapon and year, and what fencers and families can do to approach recruiting with better information. From scholarships and Division I vs. Division III to walk-on tryouts and what to include in a first email, this episode is a practical guide for anyone who wants to keep fencing in their life after high school.
Title: Rob Charlton on Why NCAA Fencing Is Within Your Reach
Season 2, Episode 20
In this episode, Bryan talks with Rob Charlton — head coach of Wellesley College and a club coach at Five Points Fencing Academy — about why many more fencers are “good enough” to fence in college than they realize, and how to navigate the NCAA landscape without getting overwhelmed.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
Find First to 15 on our YouTube channel, too!
SEASON 2, EPISODE 20
[0:00:01] BW: Let's say you're at a NAC and you're chatting with a high school fencer between bouts. You understand that they're smart, they're training hard, they love fencing. And then you ask, "Are you thinking of fencing in college?" And they say, "Um, I don't know. I'm probably not good enough for that." Well, today's guest has heard that a lot. And he actually disagrees.
I'm Bryan Wendell, and in this episode of First to 15, our guest is Rob Charlton, who is the head coach of Wellesley College in Massachusetts. And he's a coach at Five Points Fencing Academy. Rob lives at the intersection of both club and college coaching. And he has a message for a lot of fencers and parents, which is this: There's a lot more college options than you think. And there's a ton of NCAA coaches who would love to have you on their team and look at their institution.
So today, we're going to pack the myths around whether you're good enough to fence in college. We'll talk about scholarships, Division 1 versus Division 3, and what the recent growth in college fencing, including a dedicated NCAA Women's Fencing Championship, means for the sport's future.
Hey, Rob, let's dive in.
[0:01:03] RC: Hey, how are you?
[0:01:04] BW: Doing well. Thanks so much for being a guest. And let's just jump right in. What is the most common wrong thing that you hear from high school fencers and even parents about college fencing? What's something that you hear it a lot and you're immediately like, "I'm going to correct you there?"
[0:01:20] RC: Yeah. I mean, I think, honestly, one of the things is, "Am I good enough?" And I think that there's sort of a misconception that – for me, Wellesley is a women's only college. But I'll just say, "Is my son or daughter good enough at fencing college?" More than likely, yeah. Yeah. Most of the time, the answer is yes.
And I think sometimes people are under the misconception that across the board for NCAA fencing, you need to be an A-rated fencer in the top 30 in the junior points list, or else you don't have a shot, or that there's sort of this expectation of really elevated results to get noticed. And the truth is things are really different for every single NCAA program out there.
For the people that – or the other teams that we fence against, we have very, very different standards, very different calendars, very different processes on how we approach students that might be considering fencing in college. And I think that's the thing is there's not really a blanket answer that helps a student say, "All right. Well, what's the solution here?"
To be perfectly honest, one of the reasons I asked if I could be on this was I was talking to a college coach at an event earlier this year, and they said, "Boy, I'm just going to start reaching out to every single women's foil fencer who's a current junior in high school because I'm just desperate for foil right now." And at the same NAC, I had someone else ask, "Am I good enough to fence on your team?" And she was an A, and I was like, "Absolutely." Sort of the messages are sort of crossing over each other in different levels.
[0:02:44] BW: Yeah. So, let's talk about that landscape. Just from what you hear anecdotally from other coaches, how many programs are looking for more applicants, more good student athletes for their team versus those that are turning people away that are saying, "Sorry, we're full?" Or we don't have any women's foil spots open at the moment, as one example.
[0:03:05] RC: It really depends, to be perfectly honest. And I've been on both sides, to be honest. I've been on the side where, boy, I just wish the phone would ring, or the email would chime, or whatnot. And then there's definitely been other years where I've had to have a really – for me, a really heart-wrenching conversation with somebody who I really like who's very talented. And the conversation is like, "I can't have 12 people on one squad. I really like you. But the fact is I've already have seven people on my squad, and I've got four people that are interested. If you'd still like to apply, you probably have a spot at the college, but you might not have a spot on my team." And there's been other years where if you knew how to hold a certain weapon, I probably would have talked to you.
I think that's sort of it can be different every single time depending on the school. And I also think there's a misconception that every school is one of the – or every NCAA school runs in the same model as some of our top-rated colleges that are vying for a national championship year in and year out. The truth is that there are some that do that, and they are looking for people who are only looking – or not only, but people are on junior national teams that have had international results and things like that. Those teams can be selective, and they have to be selective. Other teams don't have quite that flexibility. It does change from year to year. And I know for me in the last five years, it's a little bit different every single year. And I think for every institution, it's going to be a little bit different every single year as well.
[0:04:33] BW: Yeah. Let's get into that a little bit. It's not just different from one institution to another, but like you said, from year to year. Can you explain a little bit how a roster is constructed? Because you're not just competing against – competing maybe is the wrong word, but you're not just being looked at within your year, but also what you already have on your team. In other words, if you're a women's FA fencer, and Wellesley is good on women's epee, let's say. They don't need anymore because there's so many great sophomores, juniors, seniors, and you're a first-year student looking to enter that program. Well, maybe they are full. How does that factor in the fact that you have to look at not just your incoming class, but your current roster?
[0:05:14] RC: Yeah. I mean, it's a big part of it. I mean, one of the things is, for instance, I encourage people to go abroad junior year. Not all programs can accommodate that. It might be that for one year I'm in great shape, and all of a sudden, I've got a couple of people go abroad. It's also like you said, it's looking at sort of a 4-year spread of what these people are doing.
Occasionally, I think, at every program in the country, sometimes people leave the team for a variety of reasons. Either they've decided they don't want to do it anymore, they have professional opportunities like internships or things like that that take away their time. It's always this sort of me looking down the road a couple years from now and saying, "All right. Well, do I take three people this year instead of two people?" With an eye on maybe I know that person's looking at applying to graduate school as a senior, and maybe they're going to have a really hard time fulfilling their classwork as well as all the travel and the training schedule that we have, and things like that.
The other thing that I just wanted to mention, too, is you asked earlier about somebody asks me. People ask me, "How many spots do you have?" And I always say like, "I don't know. You're currently a junior in high school. I don't know what my roster is going to look like two or three years down the line." And part of that again is who might be going abroad, who might be returning to the team.
Also, at this point, as we're speaking right now on – what is it? December 11th. I don't know who's been accepted into my program for next year yet. I think a better question for prospective students to ask is, "Are you looking for people from my class here?" And I think one of the things that people might not quite recognize is the different models of institutions, not necessarily teams, but institutions.
For instance, I can speak to myself at Wellesley. It's academically very rigorous. I'm fond of saying to recruits, "If you won the Olympics, but you've got a 3.2 GPA, and you tell me Wellesley is your first choice, there's nothing I can do for you." There's other schools that are looking to boost enrollment. Specifically, they add fencing teams because they know they can get really smart, dedicated athletes coming onto their team, and they want to attract it.
Some teams might say, "Hey, listen. Coach, you're only allowed to have five people per squad." Others might say, "Well, you can have a roster of 18." And some might say, "The more the merrier. Get them in here." I think that's really the question that students should be asking is not so much how many spots do you have, but are you looking for someone like me? And I think that's a more pertinent question to ask. Because I always tell people I'm looking for people in every weapon every year. I just don't know how many until a little bit later in the game.
[0:07:50] BW: Yeah, that makes total sense. I think there's a big perception, Rob, that everybody who is a high school fencer looking at college is vying for scholarships. Can you walk us through who can and can't offer athletic scholarships and what that means at Division 3 schools like Wellesley?
[0:08:06] RC: Sure. It's a NCAA policy that division three teams do not offer athletic scholarships at all. If you go to talk to a Division 3 coach and they say, "I don't have a scholarship for you." It's not a comment on you. It's just that's the way that it works.
[0:08:21] BW: And again, we're talking athletic scholarships, right? Because academic scholarships are completely different. If you're the valedictorian of your class and have all these great attributes, you still might get an academic scholarship at Wellesley, as an example.
[0:08:35] RC: Correct. Correct. Yeah. Thank you for that clarification. I'll even talk a little bit about that. If a coach says, "Listen, I don't have an athletic scholarship for you," and they're a Division 2 coach. Again, it's no comment on you. It's just that that's the way that our system currently works.
Division 1 schools can offer scholarships. Now, I'm not going to talk too much about it because it's not in my wheelhouse. But my understanding is that for a women's program, they have five scholarships to offer. That's not five a year. That's five total. Most division one schools can't offer – they offer parts of a scholarship, so a percentage of a scholarship.
However, looking into what the financial aid packages might be at one school versus another, what merit-based aid might be, those are all factors that people should be looking at. Because I think this is something that happens not just in fencing, across all sports, is you have people – they've been doing their sport, and they're really dedicated, and they've been working really hard, and they're looking for that scholarship. And it's like maybe the scholarship is the right road for you. And maybe that is going to be an opportunity for you.
But for a lot of people, looking for a financial aid, or a merit-based scholarship, or an academic-based aid of some sort might be the more fruitful path for them to take. And those are the questions that people really want to look into and really do a deep dive when they're talking to different programs.
[0:09:46] BW: Yeah. Look at the whole package. And what is your actual out-the-door or in-the-door, whatever expression we want to use, cost to attend that institution? So that way you're comparing apples to apples in that sense, right?
[0:09:59] RC: And also another part of it is not all. Again, it's literally different for every single program. But for some schools, Division 1 schools, they attend a lot of the NACs. That's another part of travel. They might show up earlier in the school year, or they might end later in the school year than a Division 3 school might. It's also about what people are looking to do. Are they looking to continue competing in the NACS and vying for cadet or a junior team and go to those junior world cups and things like that? Or are they looking to focus on their you know sort of in-house academic experience? And those are all factors that the students want to be aware of, too, because sometimes they might not necessarily understand that difference as well, is that not every NCAA school is sending a cadre of people, of fencers, to the April NAC. They just know some are and some aren't.
[0:10:49] BW: And then how about some other advantages of fencing at a Division 3 school that families might not consider? Are there athletic, academic, or even social things that a Division 3 school provides that maybe might surprise certain people, certain families?
[0:11:05] RC: It really varies. It definitely depends. It's a good question to ask. But overall, the Division 3, the focus is primarily on academics. And that's not to say that at Division 1 schools, that's not there by any means. But the priority is on the academic experience first. A question people ask me all the time is, "What do we do if we miss schoolwork for fencing?" And my answer is always like, "We almost always compete on a Saturday or Sunday. We hardly ever miss class due to travel." But when we do, the professors have to give reasonable accommodation to make it work.
But the one thing is that you might have a little less travel time. Also, you might be able to do some things in terms of an academically based lab opportunity or something like that that maybe you don't get at another institution. But I think the main thing is the number of hours that you train during the week and also the amount of travel that's there. It can be daunting.
Also, again, it depends on what you want to do. If you want to be a premed at a really rigorous institution, people do it. I mean, you look at some of our best fencers in the country have done really amazing things academically, but it's a challenge, and it's something that not everybody is cut out for. And again, it really does depend on what you want that be. Do you want to be training basically the entire year and training a lot?
The NCAA fencing season is officially over as of NCAA's. And Division 3 teams aren't supposed to be practicing after NCAA's. I tell my team, "Basically, end of March and April, you're on your own." There's those sorts of factors, too, of what that commitment level looks like and what you really want to do.
[0:12:42] BW: Mm-hmm. I think that's interesting. All right. Let's say a current high school fencer is listening, and they're like, "Okay, you've said that more people should be reaching out and thinking about fencing in college than maybe currently are." And they're still thinking, "Okay. But am I good enough? How do I know?" You said it's not just A-rated fencers. It's not just people who are Olympians and representing Team USA at Junior and Cadet World Championships. Where is the line for good enough? Is there some sort of way they can say, "If I'm consistently finishing at this level at a NAC in the junior event, does that mean I'm good enough?" Is there a line that they can use?
[0:13:21] RC: No.
[0:13:22] BW: Okay. All right. Fair enough.
[0:13:23] RC: Be honest. And again, on my team, I have some people who have done really well in their high school career. They did some pretty impressive things. I also have people that fenced on a high school team. And at the time that they basically were admitted and reached out to me and said, "I fenced on a high school team. I'd like to consider keeping going with this." I don't really have – I never went to JOs. I don't have that experience. Do you have a place for me in your team? And at that time, I said, "Yeah, I got a spot. Let's have you come in and try out."
And sometimes it's worked out. I've had people have tried out that they just haven't quite had enough experience to add to our community experience that we have during practice. And sometimes I have someone come in and be like, "Your teammates have competed at a higher level than you, but you can still contribute, and you can still compete against some teams that we have on our roster. If a meet is wrapped up one way or the other, you can save somebody's legs for later in the day. And you get to be on this team, and you get to be an important part of what we're doing."
And they literally don't have a rating. If you look them up on Fencing Tracker, I don't even know if some of these people are there. And I think those opportunities are across a lot of the NCAA landscape. Not all schools. I just want to be really clear on that. Not every school is going to be looking at that, but there's a bunch that might be looking for people. And again, it's going to depend year-to-year-to-year.
There's times where I've had people reach out to me and say, "Hey, listen. I did this weapon in high school. Can I try out for your team on campus?" I'm like, "Ah, geez. I wish I could, but I can't have 10 epee fencers this year. I'm really, really sorry."
[0:14:48] BW: Got it.
[0:14:48] RC: And there's been other times where I've had people reach out and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is great. Now I've got another person on that squad that I know can make a meaningful contribution." And also, too, my roster is pretty full right now, but there have been years where people going abroad, it's like we're a couple cases of flu and a turned ankle away from being absolutely at the bare minimum of going into a competition, which nobody wants to be at. That's where those opportunities might be there that people don't quite understand.
And the other thing that I'd also really like to encourage people to do is I know everyone sort of sets the bar really high, right? They're looking at these really elite academic institutions, and that's the one I want. And unfortunately, those opportunities are limited. There's only so many spots at really elite fencing schools that also have elite academic reputations, right? Talk to everybody. You might be surprised at some of the programs you see at some of the schools that might not be on someone's radar. They might look at something and be like, "Well, I was thinking about this really high-level academic school. I don't know if I have the chops. But this other school that I'm looking at, I didn't really think about Division 3, but they have the major that I want. It's a really good program." And gosh, spreading a really wide net, which is also what a lot of coaches do, is we spread a really wide net. Understanding that, at the end of the day, people are going to filter themselves out. They're going to decide that a major isn't present for there, or they change their mind on what their major are.
Spreading that wide net and making sure you're really talking to a lot of coaches and giving yourself the most information to work with is something I don't think a lot of people might be doing at this point. And there are some schools that are really looking for people.
[0:16:27] BW: I want to go back to something you said. Because I think a lot of people assume the only path to an NCAA fencing team is through the recruiting process. But it sounds, occasionally, there is this – do we call it walk-on, where they're trying out and – in other words, someone loves Wellesley, and they want to go there regardless of whether they're given a spot on your fencing team. They get into the school. And once they're there, they say, "Hey, Coach Rob, can I come in for a tryout?" How does that process actually work? And obviously, with the note, we're talking specifically about Wellesley. It can change from year to year. But I think that's something a lot of people don't even know is a potential pathway.
[0:17:04] RC: It's funny you say that, Bryan, because I've had people ask me in the past. They're currently in high school, they might be a junior or maybe around this time of the calendar year, and they say, "Can I walk on to your program?" And I'll say, "Well, why don't you want to go through the recruiting process? I'm here. You're here. Let's talk about this." And I think that's also something that, personally, for me, it can be different. But sometimes people might not know if they want a fencing college. They don't want to go through the recruiting process. And then, all of a sudden, they get in, and they're like, "Oh, geez. I really think I want to do this."
[0:17:33] BW: I miss it. Yeah.
[0:17:35] RC: It's like that situation. Or to be honest, what happens for me most of the time is when someone comes to me late in the calendar for Wellesley. They come to me late in the calendar, and I might have a bunch of people already lined up, and they say, "Hey, listen. I was admitted already. I didn't reach out to you. But now that I'm thinking about it, I'd like to see if I can join the team."
And at that point, I might say to them, "I've got a bunch of people that have pretty good competitive experience, and we're pretty much set. But I might be able to use you if I think you can contribute. So, let's go through a tryout process." In which case, they do – and I think it's – I honestly don't know. I know for my institutions, two weeks. They get two weeks of practice. And then my coaching staff and I basically make a decision of like, "Yeah, you're here. No, I'm sorry. This doesn't work out."
But I would encourage anybody to go through the recruiting process. And again, it's going to be different. Again, for me, the biggest thing is that academic side of things. Basically, a big part of the recruiting process for me is having admissions overlook people's academic profiles at the end of their junior year. My admissions department gives me a pretty good idea of like, "We think this person has pretty much done the work that aligns with other students who have been admitted," or some questions. Or, "This person should probably pursue some other activities or other opportunities, excuse me."
With that in mind, that's a big part of it for me. But I know there are other schools that do those academic reviews much earlier in the calendar year than my school did. There's other schools that will say, "If you meet these standards at the end of your junior year and you apply, you don't have anything to worry about." There's other schools that will say, "It's really going to come down to what happens at the time of the application." All of those things are different.
Some coaches can give you an ironclad guarantee very early in the calendar year. Others can't. Yeah. Those are sort of the other things in terms of the recruiting process. But if you reach out to a coach and say, "I don't know if I'm good enough, but here's my academic resume. Here's my fencing resume. Where do we go from here?" There's no harm in doing that. And if a coach comes back and says, "This year doesn't look great for me." All right. Thanks very much.
A lot of people are kind of not taking that step. They don't know what the recruiting process looks like. And it might be their top choice. It might be their third choice, but that third choice might turn into their top choice later on. But asking those questions to make sure that they know what those differences are is really, really important.
[0:19:52] BW: Yeah. And casting a wide net, like you said. I think it's valuable to spend a couple of minutes on just the rules here because Division 1, 2, and 3 each have different rules on when a prospective student athlete can communicate with coaches and when the coaches can email them back or even bring them on campus. Let's talk specifically about Division 3. What rules exist there? Is there a timetable to when you are not allowed to respond to an email that you get from a student?
[0:20:20] RC: I mean, I think the extreme version is – I think, was it at summer nationals? I had someone come up to me and say, "Oh, wow." Literally, he just saw my sweater and pulled me, said, "Hey, how are you doing?" He goes, "Well, kind of hoping my daughter might be able to maybe someday talk to you about things." And I was like, "Oh, okay. Well, what year is your daughter?" And he's like, "She's in fifth grade." I was like, "Okay, that's a little early." I was like –
[0:20:42] BW: The seven-year plan. Wow.
[0:20:44] RC: Yeah. Exactly. I can meet with people in person after the conclusion of their sophomore year. Typically, at Summer Nationals is when I meet with a lot of people who are rising juniors. Then the sort of odd idiosyncrasy of NCAA rules is I'll meet with somebody at Summer Nationals, and they'll say, "Oh, I'm going to come to campus in October. Can I meet with you on campus and look at the fencing room and the sports facility?" I'll say after January 1st. And they're like, "But we're meeting now in person." Right. But we can't meet on campus until after January 1st.
[0:21:11] BW: Got it.
[0:21:12] RC: And then in terms of the emails, I can respond, basically, electronic conversations. That can happen most of the time. I can always respond to an email. Now, sometimes I've had people say, "I'm a sophomore in high school." And I might say, "Listen, keep in touch with me. I'd love to learn more about you, but I can't meet with you in person until next year." I think that's an acceptable way to do things. I don't have to completely shut someone out.
[0:21:35] BW: So, you're not just ignoring them because they went too early. And the student's not going to get in trouble for emailing any Division 1, 2, or 3 coach, because the coaches know the rules. If you send an email too early, you're not going to be put on some sort of blacklist. It's just a matter of they might not be able to respond. Or if they can respond, it's just a very generic, "Hey, let's talk once you've reached this stage."
[0:21:56] RC: Yeah. Also, I think I did a panel discussion last year. A student asked – or I should say a parent asked that question. It's my job to make sure I'm playing by the rules. Now, I'm not going to speak for Division 1. I don't want to misspeak for anyone. But I know there's times when Division 1 coaches are not allowed to correspond with athletes, and I don't want to get into that.
[0:22:15] BW: Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
[0:22:16] RC: But I'll email a coach. If there's a recruiting form on their website, also fill out the recruiting form. I like to get both. Sometimes I'll have somebody email me and say, "Oh, I just filled out the recruiting form." Or sometimes they'll email me, and I'll say, "Here's the recruiting form to fill out." Those are both good ways to do things.
One thing is if you're looking at Junior Olympics or Summer Nationals coming up, email them and say, "Hey, do you think we can meet?" And if they can, they will. If they can't, they will say – if I have somebody that I'm not allowed to meet with because they're too young, I'll say, "Listen, I can't meet with you at this event, but why don't you drop me a line in six months and we can see if we can coordinate for something further down the line?"
The other thing, too, is when students reach out to coaches, they should say what their year is, what weapon they fence, things like that. Because sometimes I'll get an email from someone, I'm going to start to Google them up. I'm like, "Oh, okay. She does foil." Okay. Sometimes it's really easy for students to get so far into the weeds of all their academic accomplishments that they forget the really basic information.
The other thing, too, just a quick aside, is there are more women's only programs than men's programs. You always want to make sure that you're reaching out to coaches that have a team. For Wellesley, we're a women's only college. There's a smattering of men on campus that might be cross-registering for classes or something like that. If a guy emails me and they're like, "Sorry." Yeah, that's an important part of it too, is to make sure that you know what the programs available are as well.
[0:23:41] BW: Maybe let's talk about that, that initial email. And maybe it's not even important to think like this, but is there a way to get your attention in this email? In other words, to stand out. I mean, we've talked about you want to make sure you have the basics in there. I'm a junior. I'm a women's saber fencer. Here's a little bit of my results and ratings. What else do you want in that email? Do you want links to videos? Do you want just a basic introductory paragraph, and then you're going to respond with more information? Obviously, we talked about the recruiting form. If the school has one, don't forget about that. But what makes a good initial reach out email as far as you're concerned?
[0:24:23] RC: Definitely what you just said. Who I am, where I live, what do I do, my competitive resume, things like that. One thing that always I don't want to say stands out, but if someone says, "Oh, I'm planning on majoring in this. And I looked up, Wellesley has a strong program for that." I'm like, "Okay, this person's done their homework." They've looked into things.
Every so often, someone might comment on, "Oh, it looks like you guys had a pretty good day at this event that you were at last month," or something like that. It's like, "Okay, they're doing a little bit of digging. That's nice." And that's not to say I've had conversations with people where they've reached out to me and then I'll say to them, "Are you really interested in looking at Wellesley, or are you just kind of kicking the tires?" And they'll say, "I'm just kind of kicking the tires. I'm like, "Okay, that's fine. Then let me talk to you about what we do and see if this is a good match for you."
But definitely doing that sort of your institution aligns with what I'm planning on doing academically is a really good way to do things. If somebody comes to me and they tell me that they're looking for a program that isn't offered at my school, I'm like, "Can't really help you." If you decide you want to study something else, but you're going to be coming here to study, and we don't really have that major. Little things like that to do the homework kind of make me kind of think, "Okay, this person's legit."
[0:25:36] BW: They're serious. Yeah.
[0:25:37] RC: Yeah. And that can be it. And then also why beyond the academic stuff, why they want to fence in college? What makes you want to do this? A lot of people in the NCAA – again, not all, but many, many people in the NCAA started their first competitions probably Y10. They've been at it for a while. What has you interested in continuing with the sport other than we've just kind of always done it? I'm looking to join a team. I really love the competitive aspect of it. The sport's so dynamic, I can't imagine giving it up. Things like that. Just so I know that like, "Okay, you really are interested in doing this." It's not just sort of a doorway into getting noticed by a coach. You really want to do this for the next four years.
[0:26:15] BW: Yeah. What I'm hearing is, yeah, earlier you said cast a wide net, right? And don't limit yourself to just that one school that you think is the only one where you would be happy or something like that. But when you're casting a wide net, maybe we don't copy and paste the same email to every single coach, right? Spend a little bit of time making sure it's a good fit. Do a little bit of research into results. What kind of competition schedule they have? And definitely what the academic environment is like there, and why you feel like you'd be a good fit there. Because there's a reason it's student athlete, not athlete student, right? In that order.
I want to ask you about how you look at an event like Summer Nationals, because I'm super fascinated from a coach's perspective. The fencers are there to fence. The parents are there to make sure their fencers are where they need to be. And we know why coaches go. But why does a college coach go to summer nationals? How do you structure your day? How do you keep track of all these meetings and people that you're meeting if you're talking to six different fencers in a six-hour span? How do you structure your trip to, I guess, Portland next summer?
[0:27:16] RC: Yeah, man. Google Sheets is a great tool.
[0:27:19] BW: Nice. Nice.
[0:27:20] RC: Usually, what I do is I start to reach out to people. I mean, to be honest, a lot of times we know what dates it's going to be. We have an idea of what the event days are going to be. Generally, sort of junior cadet Div 1 are at the front end of Summer Nationals. And vet and Y12, Y10 are at the tail end. Usually, once we start to figure out what the actual event schedule is going to be, then I'll start to reach out to people.
And the reason for that is there's an NCAA rule that says that I can't speak with somebody before they compete on the day. If someone has a 2:00 start time, they'll say, "Oh, can we meet at lunch?" The answer is no because I'm not supposed to. I can either meet on a day that somebody's not fencing or on a day when they're finished fencing for the day.
[0:28:01] BW: Interesting.
[0:28:02] RC: Typically, what I do is once the event – well, events are posted. Usually, once the events are posted, I buy my plane tickets. Once the start times are posted, that's when I start to reach out to people. Or sometimes people reach out to me and say, "Hey, listen. I just found out cadet epee is starting at 10 am." I should be done by four or five pm, something like that. That's a safe bet. Then I'll start to basically ask people what days do you want to meet and what times. And then I basically start to just make appointments from there. And I try to, again, meet with as many interested parties as I can.
I think another misconception might be that since I'll have an athlete come up to me, "Can my mom come and talk to you?" I'm like, "Yes. Of course, your mom can talk to you." A lot of times, I'll say, "Do you want your mom here when we talk?" Because that's also a separate dynamic. Parents are absolutely welcome. But I start to kind of structure those meetings. And then as best as I can, I'm trying to meet with student athletes. And then I'm also trying to catch fencing bouts in between, so I can see people fencing as well.
I'm kind of splitting my time between walking around the fencing hall and then leaving the fencing hall to speak to somebody for 30 or 40 minutes. And then going back and kind of bouncing around all day as we're going. And then also, if I have athletes there that are – or my club that are fencing, trying to take care of them. And you kind of structure everything so that we can all arrange.
And to be perfectly honest, many times I'll have a number of people, and I'll say, "Can I meet with you after I'm done on the day?" It might be one of those things where I might have three or four people in one event that I'll say, "You know what? When you're done, text me. I'm going to have a window of time free. There's a chance that when you text me, I'll be talking to somebody else, but I should be available between 3 and 5. Those are times that I'm available."
But again, it's sort of meeting with parents, meeting with the athletes. If I can, meeting with a coach just to talk to them and get a little bit more insight. And then catching some bouts and things like that. Every so often, it's amusing to me when someone will send me a video. And it's happened on a number of occasions where I see myself in the background watching their boats, or walking by, or something like that. And I'm like, "Yep, I very clearly remember watching that about."
And a lot of times, back to sort of our conversation, is sometimes people – people don't have to wait for me, "Hey, listen, I'm going to be in Portland. Would you be available to meet on one of these two days?" I'll say, "Here's my schedule. Let's start to do that." And also, too, at some point, I need to go home and eat. Sometimes this is really long.
[0:30:26] BW: Yeah. I was wondering when food factors into this. Yeah.
[0:30:30] RC: Yeah. But that's generally how I try to do is to try to line them up so that – I also try to make sure that I'm not rushing somebody to meet somebody else if at all possible. The other thing is – again, another misconception that might be out there is sometimes I'll meet with somebody, and 20 minutes later I'll be going into the venue, or out of the venue, or going to buy a coffee, or something like that, and I see them talking with another college coach. And they kind of give me – they're like, "Oh."
[0:30:53] BW: Busted.
[0:30:54] RC: It's like, "No, you should be talking to them. That coach and I have known each other a long time. You guys should be talking to each other." I understand that most coaches also know that and don't hold it against somebody to be spreading that wide net. We have that expectation that you're talking to a lot of people.
[0:31:11] BW: Yeah. No coach is under the delusion that you're their one-and-only school on your list. Just wanted to clarify one thing about when you can actually have these meetings. For example, if someone has their junior event on Friday at 8am, then their Div 1 event on Sunday at 10am. Saturday, where they don't have any events, they could talk to you at any point during that day. Am I right? Even though it's technically before their Div 1 event on Sunday?
[0:31:38] RC: Yeah. Basically, you're not allowed to meet with somebody on the day of competition before they compete.
[0:31:43] BW: Okay. Just that one day.
[0:31:44] RC: If they compete, they have to be done. Yeah, on that particular day. And that's across the board. If I'm at a ROC or something like that, or a regional event of some sort, it's the same thing. I can see somebody. That doesn't mean I have to shun somebody. I can say, "Hey, how are you doing?" All right. Let me know when you're done today. Good luck."
[0:32:00] BW: Yeah. Yeah. Perfect.
[0:32:02] RC: Talk to you in a couple of hours. It's not over the entirety of the event. It's the day itself.
[0:32:06] BW: Got it.
[0:32:07] RC: Unfortunately, when there's – and I understand USA Fencing has to do this with time and time constraints, and the amount of athletes we now have, which is terrific to have, Summer Nationals be as large. And I understand there's a 2:00. Sometimes it's a little hard to meet with somebody after that. Usually, I might encourage them to do another time.
[0:32:23] BW: Yeah, that makes sense. Before we get into kind of our five quick fun questions at the end, I want to hear your reaction as a coach of a women's only program to the news of the NCAA Women's Fencing Championship. In the past, just for people who don't know, if there was a women's only program, they could never even dream of competing for an NCAA Women's Championship, right? Or an NCAA championship, excuse me. because of the way that the calculations work, it's the men's and women's results combined to crown Notre Dame, the champion, as happened last season. How did you think about that news? And as a representative of the coaches of these women's only programs, what do you think that might do for our sport?
[0:33:11] RC: I mean, I think it's great. I think it gives sort of – it evens the playing field a little bit, because it does give – again, there's more women's programs than men's programs. It gives the women's program sort of – when they go to NCAA's, they're not looking at the final standings, then trying to filter out on their own and figure out how they do. It's like, "Oh, okay. This is –" it gives that recognition that I think is really important. And I think that as there's more programs coming on board, we never know what those are going to look like. It certainly helps if a school can't accommodate a men's and a women's program, which I hope they would. I hope any of the new schools coming on board. I know USA Fencing's been doing terrific work to get a number of programs added. But if there's a circumstance where they, for some reason or another, can't add a men's team, it adds a little bit of extra incentive for new programs. But I think it's terrific. And I think we'll see how it shakes out and who the champions are going forward, and how it works.
[0:34:02] BW: Yeah, I'm interested as a fan of NCAA fencing as well. All right. Now, Rob, we're going to move into these five quick hits, which are just five quick questions, short answers, short questions. And so the first one is about an email subject line. What is the best subject line that someone can use when they want to get on your radar with that first email?
[0:34:23] RC: Classier weapon. I mean, a lot of times people put in a GPA or something like that, too. But a lot of times just don't get too colloquial. This is my name. This is what I do. And I'm interested in your program. And I think those sorts of things come in just so I see that. I'm not getting hundreds of emails from recruits. I hope in all of them that sort of helps as I'm looking through records later on and things like that.
[0:34:47] BW: Yeah. It helps you find it later. Okay. Let's talk about green flags and red flags. What is a green flag when you're reading an email that makes you say, "This recruit, this student athlete really gets it?" And then is there a red flag that makes you say, "Okay, maybe they're not ready, or they don't understand exactly what Wellesley offers a fencing prospect."
[0:35:10] RC: Yeah. And I'd say probably for a lot of coaches, the green flag is the kind of what we talked about a little earlier, it's like in the body of the email, "I'm interested in this major that your school is strong in. I've looked up where you are, and that's attractive to me." Someone tells me that they hate cold weather and they can't imagine walking around in a snowy day, I was like, "Well, maybe there's some other programs that might be a better fit." Things like that. Showing some awareness that you've done your homework on the things.
A red flag, of course, like I said earlier, is if it's like, "My name's Brian, and I'm interested in joining your team. And I identify as male." It's like, "Oh, sorry." But also, too, if I feel like the information they're telling me isn't all that genuine, "I want to fence at your school because of these factors." And then I look at them like those aren't things we do. Those aren't things that are strong representations. Things like that, where – and again, not to say that I've been caught copying and pasting. I'll admit that. I send out tons of emails to certain people at the same time to coordinate meetings. There are times where I've accidentally left a time or a day in there. And it's like, "Oh, jeez." Those sorts of things are to be expected here and there. But it's when I can tell it's just a generic message that they've sent out to probably 45 other schools, it's like, "Okay." And sometimes those things do work out, but that can be one of them.
[0:36:31] BW: Okay, number three. What would be your advice if somebody that is hoping to get a spot on your roster sees you at Summer Nationals about to watch their DE? They spot that zip up, and they're like, "Oh, great. Now I have to win this. I have to do everything perfect." What advice would you have to them if you were able to talk to them in that moment? I imagine you don't go up and say, "Hey, calm down. Don't worry." But what would you tell them if you could?
[0:36:57] RC: Yeah, my advice is like, "Don't worry." If I have the opportunity to meet with somebody before they compete at Summer Nationals, or JOs, or something like that, I'll say, "If you see me, please don't worry. I'm not judging you on today. I'm judging you on who you are as a person. And I'm judging you on your complete resume." I try to be – if I know I'm going over to strip Q4, I might try to make sure that I'm going in from the other side. And if I see them, I'll kind of like back off to make sure they don't see me.
[0:37:26] BW: Yeah, that makes sense.
[0:37:26] RC: [inaudible 0:37:26] someone on the team. And when we were at Summer Nationals a few years ago, I was kind of watching. I was kind of behind a pole watching, and her dad saw me, and her dad was like, "Hey, hey, she's right over here." And I was like, "No, no, no, no. It's okay."
[0:37:38] BW: Right. I'm doing this on purpose. Yeah.
[0:37:40] RC: Yeah. And I think a lot of times is we're not judging you on how that DE goes. But we might be looking at your fencing style. We might be looking at how you deal with adversity. We might be looking at if you're up or if you're down. And your coach is talking to you, what's your general demeanor with your coach? Things of that nature. But in terms of the actual results, a vast majority of coaches would probably say the same. I'm not offering you a spot based on today. There's a lot more that goes into it.
[0:38:05] BW: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. All right. Number four. What's your favorite part of the job? Your favorite moment of the college fencing year, or something that in the day-to-day part role of being the head coach of Wellesley that you just love?
[0:38:21] RC: I mean, for me personally, basically my job is to work with some of the finest, most brilliant, wonderful people that I can ever imagine being around on a regular basis. In terms for my myself and my role as a head coach at Wellesley, I really like my team. They're good people. We have a lot of fun. We have a good environment. We have a positive environment, and it's something I really, really enjoy being a part of. Trying to help guide and steer that environment for everybody so that they feel like they're contributing and being a part of the team.
In terms of the recruiting part, it's very rewarding and very reassuring when I meet the young people that are doing fencing today and seeing sort of across the board that fencing strong as it's ever been in the United States, but the people who are doing it are really nice people. I meet people at Summer Nationals, or at JOs, or one of the NACs, and I kind of go like, "Wow. You're doing things in high school that never occurred to me that were possible." Starting nonprofits, or volunteering, or working in labs, all these things. I'm like, "My gosh, are these people talented and good."
It's really cool to see how much these people involved in fencing are doing some pretty impressive things in their high school experience, and then they start to continue on in college. I meet a lot of people on a yearly basis, and only a handful end up coming to Wellesley for various reasons. But just meeting them across the board, it's a really cool experience to be a part of.
[0:39:44] BW: I love that. Okay. And for the last one, number five, let's circle back to how we kind of started this conversation, which is you're on an escalator headed up to hall, and a fencer is like, "Oh, hey, Wellesley." Yeah, I would never be good enough to fence in college." What do you tell them? You've got however long the ride lasts to just give them that little pep talk and say, "Hey, actually X."
[0:40:09] RC: Yeah. The elevator speech, right? Or escalator speech. So, why do you think that? I think that's the first thing is what has made you think that? Have you talked to a number of schools? What is your competitive experience? Is this the first time you've ever been to a national event? If so, you're at a national event. That's a step better than a lot of people who do fencing. What makes you think that you don't have it? Because you probably do.
I've said this in some of these panel discussions we've had is like you might not be the right fit for that high-level marquee program that sort of – not every, but many high school fencers that are high achieving are looking for. But there's some really – actually, I think a lot of the – most, if not, every single one of the schools in the NCAA is strong. There's not a lot of weak academic schools there. If you fence on an NCAA team in college, you're going to get a really good education. Make sure you're reaching out to them because there are schools that definitely have spots here and there, and those opportunities will be there. So, don't sell yourself short.
[0:41:11] BW: I love that.
[0:41:12] RC: That's a really long escalator ride for that.
[0:41:13] BW: Yeah, it's one of those like giant convention centers that goes all the way up to the fourth floor. Well, Rob, thank you so much for kind of breaking down NCAA fencing. And I've also been lucky enough to moderate a couple panels you've been on. And just the wisdom that you're willing to share with this community, I think, is great. And it's a testament to the kind of mentality you bring to your team, which is just this welcoming warmth that I think is really great.
For our fencers and parents who are listening or watching this episode, just remember that there's not any one path to college fencing. Division 1, 2, 3. We didn't even talk about college clubs. We could do a whole another episode on that. But all of these are valid ways to keep fencing in your life. And I think we've learned from Rob that the key is to just reach out, ask those questions, and don't talk yourself out of opportunities before you've even had a chance to have a conversation. Rob, thank you so much. Good luck this season. And we'll see you soon at a USA Fencing tournament.
[0:42:10] RC: Sounds good. Thanks so much for the time.
[0:42:12] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up-to-date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. And if you like this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the strip. Bye.
[END]