Our guest is Philippe Bennett, a veteran foil fencer and fencing inventor who lives in New York City.
In this episode of First to 15, we're joined by Philippe Bennett, a veteran foil fencer and member of the Fencers Club in New York — a storied fencing club located right next to the Empire State Building.
He’s been a member there for nearly 50 years and currently serves as its Chair. He has represented Team USA at the Veteran World Championship six times, at the Pan American Veteran Championship three times and has won medals in Vet events at North American Cups too many times to count.
In addition to being an active fencer and an intellectual property litigation lawyer, Philippe started the company Radical Fencing to help our sport benefit from new technologies.
In this conversation, we talk about all that and more with Philippe.
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First to 15: The Official Podcast of USA Fencing
Host: Bryan Wendell
Cover art: Manna Creations
Theme music: Brian Sanyshyn
EPISODE 22
[INTRODUCTION]
[00:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA fencing. I'm your host Bryan Wendell. And in this show, you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting and insanely talented people in this sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. Whether you're an Olympian, or Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you.
With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:00:40] BW: Today's guest is Philippe Bennett, a veteran foil fencer who lives in New York City. Philippe is a member of the Fencers Club in New York, which is a storied fencing club located right next to the Empire State Building. He's been a member there for nearly 50 years and currently serves as the Chair of Fencers Club in addition to being a board member. And he's also represented Team USA at the Veteran World Championship six times, at the Pan American Veteran Championship three times. And has won medals and vet events at North American Cups too many times to count. That's in addition to his career as a youth fencer, which we'll get into as well.
In addition to being an active fencer and an intellectual property litigation lawyer, Philippe also started the company Radical Fencing to help our sport benefit from new technologies. We're pumped to talk about all that and more with Philippe. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:28] PB: thanks very much. I'm glad to be heard and glad to be seen, if I am being seen. But overall, thank you for having me.
[00:01:36] PB: Yeah, this is great. And I'm really excited to chat with you. You've been veteran fencer, and a successful one, for quite some time now. But you've actually been earning medals at USA fencing tournaments for much longer than that. I'm interested how you first got involved in fencing. And what your sort of origin story was into the sport?
[00:01:56] PB: Yeah. Well, probably around the – My parents, my mother is French and my dad was in Europe during the war, in the Army. And they actually went to see some fencing tournaments. Seeing Christian d'Oriola fence. Was an Olympic champion. And that prompted my father to want to learn to fence. And my mother always thought it was a great sport.
Years later, I turned seven or eight, I was brought to a club called Long Island Swordsman, where Coach [inaudible 00:02:32] was the head coach at Columbia University with his teaching. And both my dad and I started learning to fence together. That's made for a pretty competitive day. We often would work out in the garage. Practice there and then go to the Long Island Swordsmen that was being held at a high school. And that's actually Suffolk County. And then just kept learning at events. Often, going to local tournaments as I was getting older and going to tournaments in New England, tournaments in Washington, North Atlantic tournaments, metropolitan championships and tournaments in Manhattan and just growing with the sport.
[00:03:17] BW: Each step of the way, you must have kind of gotten some inkling or some idea that you were pretty good as well. Do you remember when you realized, "Hey, I could actually go to some of these bigger tournaments and place very highly or even win the whole thing?"
[00:03:35] PB: What was rather unique at the time of the combination of things, first is I came from Long Island Swordsmen. Went to Manhattan. Started taking lessons with [inaudible 00:03:43] at the Fencers Club. And also, practicing at South [inaudible 00:03:48]. And a fenced team within people from the New York Athletic Club. That, as well as going into metropolitan tournaments, which at the time New York City fencing and the tri-state area had most of the Olympic team that was there.
And I think somewhere between 17 and 20s, I won the metropolitan championships a couple of times, which made it clear that I could take on the fencers who were making the national finals and national teams. And from that point, then went to what was junior nationals and then a tournament called the Junior Olympics, which was first started in 1972. And did very well there.
And so, it became clear that I could definitely fence. The question became how much time could we commit to the sport or could I commit to the sport? And I was also competing in other sports. Obviously, school work was critical. All of that added up to being a pretty busy person.
[00:04:57] BW: Yes. It sounds like it. And you mentioned the Junior Olympics in '72. And as we're recording this, the episode won't come out for a couple weeks after we record. But right now, we're about to start the 2023 Junior Olympics in Denver. When you think back to when you were 17 at the time at the Junior Olympics in 1972, where you finished second, what do you remember most from that tournament?
[00:05:22] PB: Actually, a few of the finalists. One in particular, or a few of them. But definitely Chris Jennings. And Chris and I both went to Harvard. And I remember beating him at JOs and wondering why I had lost to someone that prevented me from winning the tournament.
But also, I got to say that it connected me to Chris for decades. And that certainly was something that was terrific. We were good friends in college. And we stayed friends after college. It was a nice trophy. But it was a better friendship.
[00:05:59] BW: That's well said. I looked at the details about that tournament in American Fencing Magazine, where your name is printed along with the medalists. And I see there were 98 fencers at that tournament. And then I think about our Junior Olympics now with more than 2,000 competitors there. What do you think that tells you about the growth of our sport? And is that a good thing that we have tournaments that are so large and bring in people from across the country now?
[00:06:25] PB: It has a few aspects to it. One, if you say something has grown from about a hundred to two thousand in the course of 50 years, you probably would say that that's not a lot of growth. On the other hand, seeing the JOs and the number of fencers, a number of different weapons that they're fencing and the new different groups that are fencing age-wise as well, we know we're accomplishing a great deal. And USA fencing is doing a very good job in bringing in the youth into the sport.
I think the issue is why aren't there even more? Because if you compare yourself to USA swimming, or USA skiing, or picking a lot of sports, there are much more than 2,000 people in a competition. But that's something that I think is definitely changing. And I wouldn't look back and say, "Okay, where we and where we are. Therefore, we should complement ourselves for that." It's really we should just look at where we are and go forward and say, "How do we get that 2,000 to 10,000? And how do we create and accommodate for that and bring the sport more nationally throughout our country? And bring people from Canada and South America and really turn the sport into something that it merits?" which is even greater popularity and enjoys today.
[00:07:57] BW: Yeah, agreed. I couldn't have said it any better. You mentioned Harvard. And you were also the captain of that Harvard fencing team. You were a three-time NCAA finalist, All-American, all Ivy. You've also medalled at some of these USA Fencing National Championships, and knacks, and also the Maccabia Games. What was the proudest moment from that chapter of your fencing career? Do you have a highlight that makes you say, "Okay, that trophy, that medal, that one kind of stands out to me."
[00:08:25] PB: Problem is fencing is that you remember the bouts you lose more than about your win. But I would also say that since I haven't stopped fencing and being active in the fencing community, there's any number of things that I would say I'm glad I've done and I'm certainly proud to be in the sport and proud of a result. Fencing in World Cups in Paris, and Venice, and Budapest were certainly great moments for me. Being at the Olympic festivals or being on the national championship, now foil team, for the Fencers Club or making the finals at the national championships in the senior division all were excellent and great moments.
But I think that was a match in Manhattan when I was a teenager winning the metropolitan championships and beating Albie Axelrod. That was a great moment. Or even a simpler moment was a 1972 nationals in the first round fencing Albie and beating him five nothing. And him looking at me he said, "I'll see you at practice." Then I turned to my dad immediately and I said, "He's going to kill me in practice."
There are a lot of proud moments. But you have to enjoy and love the sport. I was the first freshman to make the Eastern championships. I was pretty pleased with that. I wasn't ecstatic about how I fenced in the finals. But each moment of pride usually is followed by a fall. It's okay. The sport is certainly been very kind to me.
[00:10:08] BW: For a long time, too. And you mentioned that you never really took a break. I've talked to some veteran fencers and they say that, for some of them, just because life, right? In their 30s or 40s they might take a pause and then come back and compete at the veteran level. That didn't happen for you. You've remained fencing throughout?
[00:10:24] PB: No, it actually did. But I made a knack finals in '93. I was fourth. And then, for some reason, I fenced a nationals in '95 or '6 and didn't make it out of the second round. And put all my weapons in my bag and said, "This has – I just don't understand what's going on." And I stopped for a number of years until maybe 2009, something like that. Somewhere in there. That was a first – that tournament that was in Dallas. I just don't quite remember what year it was. But that made me come back but part of it was Laura, who's my partner, she told me it was time to get out of the house and start fencing again because I was driving everybody crazy. And we were doing triathlons and various other sports. But the competitiveness of fencing I was really missing. There was a break.
[00:11:21] BW: That kind of answers my next question. What was it that brought you back then? It was you just were missing the feeling of being on the strip and staring down an opponent it sounds like?
[00:11:32] PB: Yeah. No. It's also interacting with people who love the sport. I used to ski very seriously. I used to play soccer tremendously seriously. And the connection between all sports with the athletes that you're on a team with are always very positive. And that was the thing that I missed, which is the team spirit of the Fencers Club or the team spirit of people you knew. And at first, I was very hesitant because I wasn't sure of the quality fencing that would be there. And then I realized some of the same people were coming back and were committed to the sport. And maybe they have a couple steps more slower. But at the same time, they still wanted to win just badly as they used to.
[00:12:22] BW: That's interesting. And the Fencers Club is such a great place to do that. And like we said in the intro, you've been involved there for more than 50 years. And that club itself has such a rich history. And there's been some incredible people, including yourself, who have come through there. What's it been like just to be a part of that historic club that has these names that everybody knows among its alumni and its current fencers?
[00:12:49] PB: For me, it's a little like saying, well, you're used to a certain environment and you don't recognize how special it is. But I think over the years, you get to learn what was not just special about the Fences Club but what's special about fencing.
At the Fencers Club, one of the rules has always been, and that's why when Albie would say to me that he'll see me at practice, we all fenced each other. And it was not a matter of whether ALbie had one of bronze medal, or whether at the Olympics, or whether any of the top fencers were too elite or too good to fence you. They would fence. And they didn't have an attitude about it. They may not fence you for 45 minutes. But it was an environment where you were at home, and you were there to train and you were there to train with the best people at the club. And often, people would come visit. But everyone understood what the rule was, which is you needed to be free to fence whoever and you had to say yes when they asked you.
We often would fence – guys would fence the girls. And I would fence [inaudible 00:14:05] often, [inaudible 00:14:06] often, [inaudible 00:14:08] often. All of those fencers, we were training to be as good as we could be. And travel and fence. And it was quite a nice community. Peter Westbrook was working with [inaudible 00:14:25], and Steve Mormando, and formerly known – Mike Lofton, others, all were part of the club. You just keep going year after year that way. And it still goes on that way to the present.
But I think the trouble that the Fences Club often has is it forgets what its role is within the fencing community and within its own community of basically being innovators, drivers and a club that people should look up to.
[00:14:59] BW: I think that's so unique that what you talk about, just the anyone fences anyone approach. And I feel like you mentioned swimming before. And I feel like if you train at the same club as Michael Phelps or Katie Ledecky, you're not hopping into the pool and racing them. But fencing, that does happen. And you're fencing against Olympians. And youth fencers are coming in and getting a chance to square off against some of these legends. I just think that's such a great metaphor.
[00:15:27] PB: Can we just imagine having Federer in a court next to you or asking him to fence and he has to play tennis. And he says to you, "Yeah, sure. Give me a moment to have a drink. And by the way, it's not going to cost you a penny."
[00:15:41] BW: Yeah, that's even a better example. You're right. Yeah, it's like just hitting it back and forth with Federer or one of the greats. I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about something that's always fascinated me, which is how people find balance in their lives. And for you, Philippe, you've been named one of the top intellectual property litigators in New York. And so, I wonder whether and how you feel like fencing has helped you in your legal career. And if so, are there some tangible ways that that has kind of manifested itself?
[00:16:16] PB: Yeah, overall. And there's some background noise that you may be hearing, and that's because somebody is rebuilding their apartment below us and they decided now to all drill all at the same time from all angles of the apartment.
[00:16:32] BW: You really do live in New York City. You're proving it right now definitely.
[00:16:34] PB: Definitely the case.
[00:16:35] BW: You do live in New York.
[00:16:38] PB: Could you repeat your question? Sorry.
[00:16:39] BW: Sure. Sure. Is it safe to say that, as one of the top intellectual property litigators in New York, that fencing has helped your legal career in any way? Is that a stretch to make that connection?
[00:16:50] PB: Well, as a very fundamental point, know what do you learn in fencing? Which is sometimes you wonder why fencers are often nowadays dependent on strip coaches. We didn't have strip coaches often we when we fence. Most of us didn't. And that ties into the fact that you have to be self-sufficient on the strip. And that means you have to have to be driven, you have to have your focus, you have to be able to recover from a loss. There used to be tournaments that had repechage. And so, you lose one direct elimination, then you would still know that you had a second one. And if you lost that one, you're out of the tournament. More often than not, I wouldn't lose the second one and then you come into the third and you're back into the game. That's the concept in litigation.
Litigation also requires you to have not just a strategy and a drive. But you also have to be trusted. And your opponent needs to trust you and so do the judges. And one of the strongest I think compliments that one judge, a very famous judge in the southern district New York made it clear then I was a very dangerous litigator. Not exceedingly loud when I speak in court. And actually quiet. But somebody that you should listen to what they say. And he trusted what I said.
And that has been true I believe in all the matters that I've had because it's very much like fencing. You don't score touches regularly by being sneaky. You score touches because you deserve the touch. And hopefully the ref see it. But my view of fencing is you put in the effort and aim at the target and you go for it. And if you misjudged, then you pay the price and you had a good analysis and you'll score.
Now, with judges, they need to be able to rely on what you say. You may not say everything but that doesn't mean – and you cannot ever lie. That's what I've told my team that supports me. And we built the firm that started with this small group of about five. And we grew to 17. And that team generated tremendous revenue, but a lot of wins.
[00:19:15] BW: And does that team, do they know about your fencing as well? Or are they kind of aware of who they're working with from a fencing standpoint that you've had so much success and continue to have that success?
[00:19:26] PB: It's one thing I'm not sure how time has changed over the years. But I remember as a young associate, I always would love to talk about fencing but realize nobody else was that interested. And so, it was also perception that if you're doing something in law, it's a lot of businesses. I mean, even whether it's the restaurant business, or whether it's law, or whether it's medicine, you talk about a passion that you have that's other than the profession that you're in, people think you're less attentive than you should be. That often you'll see very successful fencers having excellent careers. And yet, I think we probably all share that absent winning the gold medal of the Olympics, which is exceedingly visible. And clearly, Lee Kiefer is the first there. You realize – Or not the first. But one of the first for the US. It will be interesting for her whether other professionals, other than in medicine, will give much heed to that metal other than saying, "That's terrific. Now, let's talk about the case."
[00:20:32] BW: Right. Isn't that interesting?
[00:20:35] PB: I avoided that, and certainly to my friends. And that's why I had a lot – I still kept a lot of friends in fencing because they're certainly the ones who are prepared to talk about the most boring subjects sometimes.
[00:20:48] BW: Well, not boring to us or anyone listening to this. At least you're among friends there. And speaking of that veteran community is such a tight-knit group, and anybody who witnesses a veteran event at a knack or certainly the championships and world championships, they can see that. How do you describe that, that group of friends who can go from being so passionate on the strip and battling for every point to grabbing a beverage at the hotel bar hours later, right?
[00:21:17] PB: I can tell you that it really hasn't changed. I remember the nationals out of California where I must have been a teen – I was in college and I had Wright and others, we were at poolside and we would certainly have drinks and we'd certainly have fun.
And then you go through your [inaudible 00:21:37] and after matches, after tournaments, you do hang with people that you like and you enjoy their company, or you travel with to Europe, or travel with around the country, or you room with. My two best friends today who's a former fencer from Yale, Jerome DeMark, who's made world teams. Quite a good fencer. You text them, email them. You see him relatively frequently. The connection has always stayed there.
What is interesting when you go to the veteran’s tournament is sometimes you don't recognize the person and you're like, "I know you." But then when they put on their mask and they start fencing, you definitely remember.
[00:22:21] BW: Isn't that great?
[00:22:22] PB: Yeah. There's one gentleman that had truly crystal blue eyes. And I remember that from college. And fencing him. And he had become a professional cyclist and had been on a professional tour in Europe and in Africa and had various – and then he got back to fencing. He used to fence at NYU. And I didn't recognize him. But for those headlights that he has, which are – yeah, I was like, "Oh, I remember you."
[00:22:51] BW: Yeah. Now it's clear. Isn't that funny? The mask goes on and that somehow jogs the memory.
[00:22:58] PB: Yes.
[00:22:59] BW: I love that. Switching gears a little bit. Somehow, you've also found time to found a company called Radical Fencing, which sells fencing gear and equipment. And it creates a number of different innovations, including several patents for fencing technologies. What was the story there? What inspired you to start Radical Fencing?
[00:23:17] PB: Well, a fair number of things. But one in particular was I thought that the sport had too few innovators. And also, I thought the sport actually – and people were selling equipment that was of lesser quality than the fencers deserve. And I wanted to give back to the sport.
For example, the role I play at the Fencers Club. But certainly, the role I played during the year 2020 and 2021 when we built the new facility, and during Covid and managed to reopen quickly in order to keep people from not practicing and allowing them to train and continue to train. And then a number of the Fencers Club, I think about seven, end up going to Tokyo. But you have that view that the sport – at least my view was I can contribute to the sport even more than just as a fencer. Radical Fencing is just a manifestation of that goal.
[00:24:21] BW: Do you have a proudest innovation or invention that has come through Radical Fencing?
[00:24:26] PB: A few. But one – No question. There's a lot of pride. And there are a few people I would certainly thank for the opportunity. But it's the ability to put fencers on a fencing surface, a flooring, that will allow them to train longer and not hurt as much when they finish training. And not be subject to hip replacement, knee replacements hopefully decades later. And that to me and other ideas that we're actually working on at Radical to make it even better for not just those who could afford a whole new flooring installation.
We've just finished doing the Harvard fencing rooms, the Northwest Fencing Center, and obviously the Fencers Club, and Columbia University. There are more universities coming and more projects coming and down the road this year and next. But I will say that Michael [inaudible 00:25:31] without a doubt, along with Larry Citrullo trusted and believed that this could be done.
I think the ability to get the people's trust to believe that you love the sport and you wouldn't do anything to hurt it. And that you'll do the best you can to give them something that, when they walk in to the space, they actually smile. And there was Aladar Kogler, the first time he walked into the new Columbia fencing room, he looked at it and he said this is too pretty to fence on. I can't wait.
[00:26:05] BW: That's awesome.
[00:26:06] PB: So, you get people who were and are in the sport. And I went to a French Club because we were invited to do a presentation. In fact, to the same club that Christian d'Oriolo is a part of. Over maybe 12,000 square-feet. And the city approved the installation. And we have yet to do that installation. But hopefully, it gets done before Paris. Because I don't know why they would want to do it after Paris. But it's not my decision.
But you look at it and you say, "That's the contribution." And now I'd love to – there is a few more. And I particularly think one will be even more important. But that is something that takes time, it takes money, it takes focus.
[00:26:54] BW: Yeah, what a great legacy. And talking about the longevity of not just the sport but of the individual fencer, right? That's kind of the goal there, is that it would – fencing can be a tough sport physically when you've got those repetitive motions going again and again. And then when it's on a surface that's unforgiving, I would imagine it only exacerbates the potential for injury.
[00:27:16] PB: And it also affects the mentality of the older fencer. I mean you think of it this way, a lot of fencers who have – Cliff Bayer, [inaudible 00:27:29], Dan Kellner, others and is still in the sport. But the idea of getting back on the strip, part of it is it hurts. And part of it is you don't like to lose. And part of it is you have to overcome those two obstacles. If you take away one of them, namely, "Hey, this is not going to be so bad. Because why do people keep swimming forever? Why do people keep –" I mean, you watch people play tennis. The older guys will play on clay courts. And they'll drop shot each other to death but they won't – they will play and they won't feel so bad at the end of the match.
[00:28:08] BW: Good point.
[00:28:09] PB: But fencers were being asked to be even tougher than the gymnast. I mean gymnasts have a sprung floor and they jump and they look like they're – and we're asked to jump on both extruded aluminum and cement while the referees have a nice little carpet.
[00:28:26] BW: Right. That's a fair point. That is a fair point. Yeah. Some of these – well, just part of the growth of the sport has necessitated are moving into these big convention centers with unforgiving floors. At least when you're practicing and training back at your home club, it would be nice if the surface was a little bit more forgiving. I totally get it.
[00:28:45] PB: Well, you just hit the nail on the head. The improvement is going to come for those convention centers and for the ability to have not just an install that's faster, a freight that's lighter and the strips that make it less painful.
[00:29:04] BW: I think that's interesting. And lastly, I'm kind of speaking broadly, fencing's come a long way when it comes to technology. I mean the electronic scoring. We've got video replay now. But I imagine, in your eyes, as an innovator in the sport, you see that we still have a long way to go. What are some ways that fencing should innovate next in your estimation?
[00:29:25] PB: Well, you start very much like litigation. You need to say, "So, what is the story that you want to be able to tell?" And then you figure out whether it's possible to tell it that way. If you were working from that perspective, you'd say, "Well, I'd like to be able to see the touches that are scored. I would like to be able to enjoy the action that has just happened at an exceedingly high speed. I would like to have a large audience enjoying this worldwide and turn it on whether it’s it may never be the World Cup of soccer, but it can be something that, like boxing is appreciated. But to do that, you need to be able to see it. You also need to be able to realize that the sport can learn from other sports.
You look at cycling. Well, sure, we have foil, epee and saber fencing. So, cyclists, bicyclists, can either do road, or track, or mountain biking. But that doesn't stop. They have different types of tournaments. They will have BMX. They will have mountain biking. They will have the one race that they go up the mountain and they carry their bike and then they go down the hills and they ride their bike. And you say, "Well, all that's fine and well." What do you do? How do you do that and accomplish that in fencing? You change the shape of the strip. You change the undulation with the strip. You make fencing something – you take it into BMX world. You take it into track world. You change and you make it multiple different levels or types of experiences for the athletes.
Some fencers, yeah, all right. They fencers are foil fencers. But would the same person if you just simply change the size of the strip and create a center, like a wrestling match, and then two extended sections like the current fencing strips. So, more like a keyhole. And you say, "All right, fence on that." And you don't have wires and you're going to now want to control that center section because that gives you the ability to circle each other, move around. And if you have to back up and you end up into these zones, which should give you limited mobility, well, those are zones that you just don't want to be in.
You have ways of making the sport appealing not just to the athletes but appealing to the people who are looking at it and say, "Oh, yeah." And one of the key things is we have to get away from elitism within the sports. A great fencer is a great fencer. End the story. He's a great athlete. Doesn't make the person any better as a person than the beginner adulter or the beginner fencer. Actually, they may not be truly elite relative to some of the kids and some of the parents who bring their kids miles to go and train.
Getting back to some humility in the sport and making people appreciate the sports for what it is and honoring – you often had in different periods of time, there was always the sportsmanship award that was given at different collegiate levels, others. And it's important that you maintain that and recognize the people who may not be number one on the podium. But they're the athletes that you really respect as a person and you would like your other younger fencers to emulate.
[00:33:02] BW: Yeah, that's well said. Well, I think it's clear why you're so respected in this sport because you have so many great ideas and such a great passion for fencing. Philippe, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. And we really appreciate your time.
[00:33:16] PB: No. Thank you very much. And obviously, I can talk for a long time. Thank you. And take care and have a great day.
[00:33:25] BW: Thanks.
[OUTRO]
[00:33:26] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks.
In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. And if you like this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or a review.
Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell. And I hope to see you real soon out on the strip. Bye.
[END]