Nick Itkin is an Olympian, an Olympic bronze medalist, a two-time individual World medalist, a two-time NCAA champion at Notre Dame and, most recently, the winner of the FIE Foil Grand Prix in Washington, D.C.
Our guest is Nick Itkin OLY, fresh off his win at the Absolute Fencing Gear Foil Grand Prix in Washington, D.C.!
[0:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell, and in this show you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in the sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. So, whether you're an Olympian or a Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:40] BW: Today, let's dive into the world of men's foil with the remarkable Nick Itkin. At this point, Nick really needs no introduction for fencing fans, but for those who are newer to the sport, he's an Olympian, an Olympic bronze medalist, two-time individual world medalist, two-time NCAA champion at Notre Dame, and most recently, as we're recording this just a few days ago, he was a winner of the FIE foil Grand Prix in Washington, DC. So, hey, Nick, welcome to the podcast.
[0:01:05] NI: Yes, thank you, man.
[0:01:07] BW: So, I'm really excited to talk with you, and I actually was lucky enough to be there live when we saw the most breaking news as to when we're recording this, which is to congratulate you on your win at the Absolute Fencing Gear Foil Grand Prix in Washington, DC. We don't have many senior events in North America, let alone in the US. So, what was it like to win there on home soil? What was the vibe like?
[0:01:28] NI: Thanks, man. I mean, it was a fascinating. A really special moment for me. I'm definitely not going to forget it. It's my first Grand Prix win, and a plus, in front of a home crowd. It was definitely super special. A lot of people a lot of kids out there supporting me. I remember when I went to go watch Long Beach in San Francisco World Cups and like, it was like really cool experience for me. I just want to put on my best performance like you could tell, in the bout, I wanted that really badly and it's definitely special.
[0:01:55] BW: Yes. You shined on that stage. So, I want to go to something you said. You actually attended some of those foil Grand Prix out in California, when you were, I guess still a youth fencer, right? What do you remember from that, where you’re like, someday that'll be me up there on the medal stand?
[0:02:13] NI: Yes. I guess. I didn't even like, in the back of my head, always dreamed of it. But like, you don't really 100% believe that that's going to happen. But yes, I would always watch all the high-level fencers. I thought it was so cool to watch and see the different speed compared to what I'm used to. It's definitely cool and surreal.
[0:02:31] BW: Yes. So, something else that was cool and surreal, I imagine, was the World Championships. So, Cairo, bronze, in 2022. Milan, silver, in 2023. I mean, I asked you at the time in Milan, it seems like you are at your best when the pressure is the highest, and it doesn't get any higher than Worlds or Olympics, right? So, does your mindset and your approach change going into those top-level events?
[0:02:59] NI: Yes. I think like a couple of things for me, at least I think is like my preparation, and then the atmosphere too. We have a lot of like intense training camps beforehand, where we fence a lot, obviously, with like the high-level fencers. And I feel like, I really grow through that period. I just tend to always see my hardest, and I realize my mistakes are, so I have to take my fencing to the next level. I can't just kind of stick with what I'm doing. I think that just puts me in that mindset of just fighting as hard as I can.
Then, the atmosphere like, yes. Like I said earlier, I just love that atmosphere where the crowd is yelling, and everyone's cheering, because when it's not like that, I have to kind of yell and force myself to get that kind of energy and atmosphere coming. But when it's already there naturally, it's just so much easier for me.
[0:03:44] BW: Yes. You've seen a lot of different examples of that. You've probably fenced in finals at NACs where maybe it's the end of the day, and there's hardly anybody still hanging around all the way to Worlds obviously, Olympics, NCAAs. One thing that I wondered is, when you win in the quarterfinals, and you know you're in the semifinals, you're guaranteed a medal. So, for a lot of people that's like, “Sweet. I'm going home with a medal at this event.” How do you keep the focus and keep the attention knowing that, “Hey, you still want to win that semis and then you want to win the finals, and go ahead and get a gold medal.” Right? I'm putting this in quotes, “Not just a bronze.”
[0:04:23] NI: Yes. I think for me, I think I started fencing even better at that level, because that's when I’m put on the stage. Right? That's when my adrenaline kicks in. I don't feel any fatigue, really, just because of the adrenaline and the atmosphere just keeps me hyped up. That's honestly, when I just fence my best and I'm just so free, because I'm already am fencing well. If I already made it that far, that means I'm most likely fencing well. So, at that moment, I'm already fencing my best and I just want to take advantage of the opportunity.
[0:04:49] BW: I wonder what that feeling is like because you mentioned in DC that you knew right after the round of 64. You went to your dad and said, who is your coach, and we'll talk more about him in a second. But you said, “Hey, I'm feeling good today.” What does that mean for someone who hasn't had that feeling out in fencing where they're like, “You know what, I'm unstoppable today.” What does that actually feel like?
[0:05:11] NI: Well, the thing that fencing is, is so hard to be consistent, because it's all about showing up on the days that you know you're not fencing well. Especially, like international tournaments, a lot of tournaments for me, like I was jetlagged, can't sleep all night, stuff like that. We have to learn how to deal with that and fence through those challenges. Here, I was fencing at home, barely any time change. I was comfortable. I was with a lot of people that I know, even outside of fencing, there's some people in there supporting me. I was just in a good mood. I was fencing.
I knew, like every single thing that I was trying to do, my timing was clicking best. The biggest thing really, is the timing for your attack, right? When I'm not fencing well, I finish my attack too early and it's just too predictable and everything's slightly off. And being slightly off in timing is crucial for fencing. But when I'm feeling my timing and I'm catching people at the right moment, and I feel a distance well, that's when like, I can fence freely, and I can do any actions that I'm like thinking of in my head.
[0:06:13] BW: That's super cool. It's almost like in any sport, you can go on a hot streak, and just can't miss from three-point range, or pick your sporting metaphor, right? For you, it's very similar. So, we know that what we see on the strip is the result of weeks and months and years of training. What is your training schedule like these days? And how are you balancing peeking, so you are performing well, at an event with the recovery time that's necessary between events?
[0:06:41] NI: Yes. I’m training six days a week here. So, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. In the mornings, I have a lesson, and in the evenings I have fencing and bouting. Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, the mornings I have, like conditioning training. And Tuesday, Thursday evening, I also take a lesson. So, I take a lot of lessons and do some bouting.
I feel like now since I'm fencing full time, I've been able to just recover naturally a lot easier, just have more time in the day, just to rest and focus on taking care of like my body, and training it professionally, eating well. All the steps of training like professional athlete. I think it’s harder back then, I felt like, because I was doing the junior events, the college events, senior events all the same time and doing school and doing a lot of stuff. That's when I really, really felt burnt out. I definitely feel a lot more naturally more recovered here, when I'm training full-time.
[0:07:32] BW: Obviously, a big part of that is the people that you're training with at your club, your coach, and your club mates out there at LAIFC. When I think that, you're from California, and there's a lot of strong California fencers, especially in men's foil and women's foil, but really, we tend to think of like New York, New Jersey area as being one of the hubs of fencing. So, what is the vibe like out there in California? And what makes that such a great place for an Olympian like yourself?
[0:08:02] NI: That's funny, actually. [inaudible 0:08:03] I guess, I didn't actually, like the kind of stereotype is like New York. East Coast is more like aggressive training. People are yelling and stuff. And then California, I guess, is like supposed to be a little more laid back and relaxed, just based off I guess what I've seen in the past. But I think now, in our club at least, we got a mix of everyone from international to East Coast and stuff. So, it's just naturally more aggressive. I like it that way. I like hard bouts. When people are just not fencing the hardest and stuff, is not my favorite.
[0:08:39] BW: Yes. For them, it's got to be exciting too. So, am I getting this right, that like on a Monday night, just someone who's at LAIFC might get a chance to do a little bout with you? Does it work like that at a club when there's someone who's at your level, and then someone who's a junior or something who's still coming up and is hoping of making a senior team someday?
[0:09:00] NI: Yes. We will have our own training person sometimes with me, Miles, and a few other fencers. But yes, we'll call up to evening trainings and yes, any of those junior fencers, of course, we're training with them. They're going by fencing us too.
[0:09:13] BW: Yes.
[0:09:14] NI: And we can get something, fencing with them as well.
[0:09:15] BW: Right. You see something different, maybe unexpected. So, let's talk about your journey into fencing. A lot of people may not know that you are part of a sports family, right? Your dad who is Misha Itkin is a former fencer. He's your coach now. Your mom is a rhythmic gymnast and a coach in that sport as well. Your sister was a rhythmic gymnast for Team USA. What was that like growing up in a household where like, everybody was competing or coaching sports at the highest level?
[0:09:44] NI: I don't even know if that was necessarily the plan that everyone had. It was just kind of naturally as obviously what we love to do. When I was growing up, so my dad opened up his own fencing club in 2003, 2004. My mom works – they share the space together. My mom coached gymnastics on the other side. This is all in one gym. So, my sister was doing gymnastics there, mom's coaching, and my dad's coaching fencing.
I would go to school, and then come to the gym, and just watch fencing and stay around the club all day, do homework and just sit and like wait till my parents are done coaching. I will just be around sports all day, watching fencing all day. I think subconsciously, that just kind of made me fall in love a little bit, because I was wanting to do it. I was watching fencing all day. I was like, “All right? What am I going to do? What am I going to do? I want to try this.” Yes, I think that was just the way I was growing up around sports all day.
[0:10:35] BW: Yes. It's kind of natural that you would absorb some of that. At what point where you’re like, “Okay, not only do I want to try this”, but eventually after you learn and grow, that you're actually good at it. You might get a chance to travel for Team USA, go to college defense, and then ultimately, go to the Olympics.
[0:10:55] NI: Yes. I mean, it's hard to say like an exact moment, but definitely, at like 16 is when I remember I was – there was some moment where my results came from being consistent, like 16, 8, 32 fencer to start actually winning tournaments. I think that moment was when I started to realize the value I got out of training. The way I viewed the whole sport kind of changed. And that's when I realized, I knew I wanted to do this seriously. Not just seriously, but I wanted to make sure that I can be the best I could ever be.
[0:11:29] BW: Yes. Obviously, that was the right decision and it's paid off. Let's talk about your coach/dad a little bit more. What's the dynamics like there? How do you maintain that father, son, and coach fencer relationship?
[0:11:45] NI: Is not easy. Honestly, that's something I'm working to this day. But obviously, there's some advantage because it’s not common to have a father-son coaching relationship. So, there's obviously some advantages. But I'm still working on. It's something definitely unique because for most people, they talk about this coach about fencing for only some part of the day, right? Or some part of the week. But for me, it's not just at the gym. It’s my whole life. It's definitely unique, but it's just what I'm used to.
[0:12:17] BW: So, you're 16, you're sitting there at dinner, are you talking about fencing, you and your dad? Or does it turn off at some point, and you're just like, “Hey, did you see what the Lakers did last night?” I don't know. Something like that?
[0:12:28] NI: I mean, yes, of course, you talk about other stuff too. But yes, it definitely does come up a lot.
[0:12:33] BW: Yes, sure. It would have to. Then, has it changed now that you're 24 and out on your own, where you obviously still see him at the club and at competitions, and all these other times? But has that dynamic changed at all?
[0:12:46] NI: Yes. I think I've just grown more as an individual. So, I know how his mind works. I know what triggers him and what conversations how to approach certain fencing subjects and stuff like that. So, I just understand more. I’m more understanding of him and his reactions and feelings towards things. We do kind of spend a little less time together, I guess, because we're not living on the same roof. I'm more understanding of the relationship now.
[0:13:10] BW: Yes. So, it's strengthening. Let's talk about Paris and the men's foil team. As we're recording, the three individual and team athletes are yourself, Alexander Massialas, and Garrick Meinhardt. Alex is going to his fourth Olympics. Garrick is going to his fifth. So, somehow, in this weapon, you're one of the less experienced Olympians, even though you're going to your second Olympics, which is crazy. So, what have you learned from them? When you think back on Tokyo, where you were 21, and these guys were multitone Olympians already. What did you take from the two of them?
[0:13:46] NI: A lot. I mean, I spent so much time with these guys, ever since I made the team at 19. They've kind of just took me under their wing and treated me just like I was one of them, even though I was so much younger. I just learned a lot how they carry themselves, how they view fencing, their experiences in previous Olympics. I took in all that, even when I was a young kid, especially when I was a young kid. I was like learning everything that they did and how they actually did trainings and everything. I've gotten so much for it. Because of it, I don't think I'd be the fencer I am today without that.
[0:14:17] BW: So, not only that, but you wouldn't want the three of you to have the same fencing style, especially for that team event, right? Because you want to show different looks at your opponent when you're out there and kind of be unpredictable. So, that's great that you're not three carbon copies of each other, that you've adapted your own style while still, you know, learning from them and how they approach the sport. Is that accurate to say?
[0:14:38] NI: Exactly, yes. Exactly. We all grew up fencing differently and we all have our own unique styles and we all train different ways as well. I think we're all very unique fencers. I think fencing in general is very rare that you have carbon copies of each other. Some schools might be similar. But yes, I would argue that we're all pretty different in the way we fence.
[0:15:01] BW: That helped you, obviously in Tokyo, where you got a team bronze medal. Obviously, you wanted the gold there. You came away with a medal, which for those who don't know, you do fence off for bronze. So, it's not a guarantee that when you lose in the semifinals, that you're still going to go home with a medal like it is in the individual event at non-Olympics competition. So anyway, what stands out from you from that experience when you look back on that bronze?
[0:15:26] NI: I felt like it was a learning moment, a huge, huge learning moment. Obviously, we really wanted the gold. I think we were favorites going in. At the end of the day, I look back on it after we lost that first bout, and this is a moment where the guys kind of gave me a different mindset was like, how many people can walk away with a bronze medal. So, at that moment, it was really, really tough to gather ourselves together after we lost that bout. But obviously, as you said, they’re experienced fencing in those high-level tournaments. I just wanted to be like, we went to the back, we kind of tried to fix our mood a little bit and we played cards and stuff. We locked in and ourselves a bronze. But I learned so much from that experience and just being in our second one, I already am going with a much newer mindset.
[0:16:07] BW: That's really interesting, because it all happens so quickly, right? That semifinal defeat, and then it's almost a test of not only who's the best team in that bronze match, but who can shake off that lost the fastest. So, it's interesting to hear that you guys played cards and try to get your heads right again. Talking about everything other than the actual fencing in Tokyo. What was that experience like? Because your only Olympics so far was a COVID Olympics. So, masks and quarantine and protocols. Do you feel like you still got the full Olympic experience, something like meeting other athletes, checking out other sports? Or was it kind of a little bit different because of the pandemic?
[0:16:51] NI: I mean, it was a sick experience. But it was definitely really different, especially from what everyone was telling me. But obviously, I had an amazing experience, just being in that atmosphere, meeting all these high-level athletes. We all kind of live very similar lives. We all have similar goals, and I think we all learn from each other a little bit. Have they view tournaments and competing at a high level.
But yes, it was definitely, I couldn't watch any tournaments live, which was kind of disappointing. I had a lot of sports that I wanted to watch. But it was cool to watch it on TV and like this Team USA lounges and stuff, and the other athletes there. But I mean, in Paris, it can be completely different and I'm just looking forward to it.
[0:17:29] BW: Yes. The experience will be night and day. I would imagine. Did the sports fan in you geek out at all, seeing anybody like just walking around? Oh, there's whoever, like this NBA player or swimmer, or something like that?
[0:17:43] NI: Yes. Definitely. I'm a huge NBA fan. I watch Lakers, like all the Laker games, even when I was a little kid. Just seeing like all those basketball players, in the opening ceremonies, they were next to us, and it was cool to talk to them for a second and realize that they're humans too. But it's definitely a cool moment. Then, in Paris, it’s going to be even crazier, I think with the amount of athletes that I want to see. Because all these people are people watch, like every other day.
[0:18:12] BW: Yes, of course. Now, it's not just – I mean, you were known within fencing circles, for sure, back in Tokyo. But now, people are going to be wanting to meet you too. So, that kind of makes it a little bit, maybe a little bit different experience. So, what are you expecting for Paris, like your hopes for the entire experience of it? And answer that however you want, whether it's the fencing or the experience of being at your second games?
[0:18:38] NI: Yes. The experience is going to be really unique for me. I wanted the full experience, that's why we're going to be there like from the very beginning to the very, very end. Experience the full experience that like all my teammates are talking about since day one. When I first met the team, they kept talking about all these crazy stories, and what it was like watching other sports and stuff like that, and it's going to be crazy. To be able to compete at a high level, the highest level is just a dream. That's everyone's dream when they started fencing as a little kid competing in the Olympics. Yes, I'm just making sure that I'm ready for it and showing up and fencing the best. It's all about how you show up on that day. If I show up and fence well on that day, and I'll be happy.
[0:19:17] BW: Yes. Anything can happen. For somebody like you kind of going back to what how we started the episode, for somebody like you who thrives on that atmosphere. You fenced in Paris before at tournaments. It's going to be pretty crazy, right? It's going to be a packed house. I'm hearing it sold out. So, it seems like it’s well suited for your style of those big crowds. Even if they’re may be cheering for the other guy across from you.
[0:19:43] NI: Yes, I'm super, super excited. It's going to be insane. I can't even imagine. I hope it's insane. I want it to be insane.
[0:19:50] BW: Yes. It's going to be a venue that nobody's fenced in for a long time too. The Grand Palais. So, Nick, before we go, I got a couple more for you. One is about just the foil program in the United States. As we're recording, you just ascended to number one in the world and men's foil. Congrats. Lee Kiefer has been number one for a little while in women's foil. I was looking at the junior rankings. We've got Emily Jane on the women's side. Samarth Kumbla. These are all Americans who are number one. Why is that? Why is foil so good right now in this country?
[0:20:22] NI: Yes, that's awesome. I mean, for me, it's crazy to think about, honestly. I wasn't even expecting after winning that tournament. That’s just like a huge bonus. But yes, I mean, like you said, even the top junior fencers are number one.
I think a lot of it – I mean, obviously, there are high-level coaches, a lot of great coaches out here in the US, and a lot of it is just that initial group, from two teams ago, I guess, for men’s foil, at least. The Garrick, Miles, obviously, that was a stack team. They're like, winning World Cup after World Cup and World Cup. To make that team, you can't really get away with just thinking like a 16 or an 8, or like making a few good results. To make that team, you need a medal. You need to like medal at multiple tournaments.
So, in order to make that team, which is just how you become a professional athlete, honestly, that's how you grow, is making that initial team. That's the biggest step, I think. The requirement was so high. So, I think you just have to focus on that goal, and that was just my goal when I was growing up, because I had to do that. That's what the target was. It was not just like a medal. It was like multiple medals. Then, also, going into training camps, training with these people, and I'm growing from them, and going in NACs, and people are going from fencing me as well, and they're trying to beat me. So, it's just like a rotation of growing the fencing at that level.
[0:21:39] BW: That's really well said, because as the bar gets raised, to even make – forget about the four, even make the 12, that's going to go to a World Cup or a Grand Prix. That bar keeps getting raised tournament after tournament. You're part of the reason why and the reason that, like you were saying, the reason that you made it to that point is because others above you or ahead of you were raising the bar too. So, it's like, everybody's strengthening each other. I love thinking of it like that. That's actually a good pivot into our last question, which is thinking about the up and coming fencer who sees you and says, “This is awesome. I would love fence like Nick and at that level, some day.” What's your advice to helping them chart a course to get there?
[0:22:25] NI: I think a huge part of success comes from me training, honestly. I know, it might sound like an easy thing to say. It might seem obvious that obviously training is important. But I remember when I was a kid, I would just show up to training and it kind of be not a chore, but almost like a chore. Okay, I'll just show up to training and do my thing. But I think I grow a lot from there. Not even always trying to win, which can be important at some moments too. But also, just exploring your fencing, try new things, figuring out what you need to work on, and even messing around a little bit and doing completely new stuff. Because it'll just come out naturally in tournaments. Training really just sets you up for the tournament. You're not going to be able to do new things in a tournament without doing it in training, obviously.
So, just in the training, like watching a lot of footage as well. I watched so much footage when I was a kid of like fencers that I really loved watching, and I would just kind of like subconsciously start doing stuff that they did in training. I think in a tournament, like last weekend, the eight or four bout, I'm already fencing so much that my brain has already started to fence a little subconsciously. I'm just doing actions that I'm not even thinking about doing. I just kind of did them. I don’t know why, but I just felt the moment to do them and I did it. That just comes from training, really. So, have fun with the training. Enjoy it. Just don't be afraid to do new things and try new actions.
[0:23:42] BW: I love it. Yes. It's obviously worked for you and it's been fun watching you this this season and looking forward to cheering you on in Paris. So, Nick Itkin congrats, and thanks for joining us and good luck.
[0:23:55] NI: Yes, of course. Thank you, man.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:23:57] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the Strip. Bye.
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