We're joined by Nathan Jeon, known not only for his skills as a three-weapon fencing referee specializing in foil but also for his notable journey as a fencer and academic.
We're thrilled to have Nathan Jeon as our guest.
Nathan is a multi-talented individual in the fencing world, known not only for his skills as a three-weapon fencing referee specializing in foil but also for his notable journey as a fencer and academic.
Starting his fencing journey at a young age, Nathan quickly ascended through regional and national rankings, competing both nationally and internationally, and later collegiately at UC San Diego.
His dedication to the sport took a turn toward refereeing, where he started nationally in 2018 and recently received his FIE License in Foil.
Currently a Ph.D. student at Columbia University, Nathan balances his academic pursuits with a deep involvement in fencing, both as a referee and a fencer at the New York Athletic Club. In this episode, we dive into his experiences, insights, and the passion that drives him in the world of fencing.
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First to 15: The Official Podcast of USA Fencing
Host: Bryan Wendell
Cover art: Manna Creations
Theme music: Brian Sanyshyn
[0:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell, and in this show you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in the sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. So, whether you're an Olympian or a Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:00:40] BW: So, for today's episode, we are thrilled to have Nathan Jeon as our guest. Nathan's a multi-talented individual in the fencing world, not only known for his skills as a three-weapon fencing referee, specializing in foil, but also for his notable journey as a fencer and an academic. He started his fencing journey at a young age and Nathan quickly ascended through regional and national rankings competing both nationally and internationally. And then also collegiately at UC San Diego.
His dedication to the sport took a turn toward refereeing, which he started doing nationally in 2018, and recently received his FIE license in foil. Congratulations. As if that's not enough, he's also currently a PhD student at Columbia, where he balances his academics with a deep involvement in fencing, both as a referee and as a fencer at the legendary New York Athletic Club.
So today, here live at the November NEC, we're excited to dive into his experiences, insights, and passion that drives him in the world of fencing. So, hey, Nathan, thanks for joining us.
[0:01:37] NJ: Thanks for having me.
[0:01:38] BW: This is really exciting to have you because, I've talked to a lot of referees and they're like Nathan's a great guy. You got to get him on the podcast. But I want to go back before refereeing. What was your kind of origin story for fencing? What got you into the sport?
[0:01:50] NJ: Yes. I started fencing when I was nine years old and it was just like at a community center that I was actually a swimmer for. One day, the pamphlet came out, and my mother was like, “Hey, there's a fencing program that opened up and they were doing tryouts for a lot of newcomers.” And she was like, “Hey, maybe you should try it out and see if you like it or not.” I went in, I tried it. Since then, I never stopped fencing again. It was really fun.
Yes, gradually, over time, I would move through community center, and then I went to a local club. I stopped going to that club at around 12 years old, until where I moved into Silicon Valley fencing center with [inaudible 0:02:29]. And from there, that's when I kind of started competing, which in today's day and age may have been a little late. But in that short period of time, I think the coaches there really helped me progress through there within that short period of time, helping me get through the Y12 stage, Y14 stages. Then, as soon as I got to the cadet stages, they let me go into the top 20 to travel internationally.
Throughout that period of time, I go into more international events, and eventually got to France, actually, at one of the grand prix too. From there around that point, that was when I would kind of get an idea that like, “Hey, maybe refereeing is also a good idea too.” So, within my fencing journey, it was a very short period of time, rapid improvement, just through the help of all my fencing friends, coaches, and everything. I think something that really, really drew me to really, really enjoy fencing and refereeing is, I think, the mental challenge of the sport. It's a very fast-paced sport. You got to make very quick decisions. You got to outwit your opponent. I think having that part of that really made me interested and very passionate in the sport.
[0:03:34] BW: It all started with that pamphlet at your swimming club, right? That's awesome. So, I want to get really into your refereeing as well. But back, thinking about your fencing career, were there some big challenges, or was there one moment where you were like, maybe questioning whether fencing is right for you, and you had to push through some of obstacle?
[0:03:56] NJ: Yes. I see, throughout my first few years of fencing, it went pretty well actually. There was a rapid improvement. I was really enjoying the sport. My coaches, in fact, like show me videos and clips, and I was really getting into it, like watching these really good fencers, people who I always looked up to. It was going very, very well until a specific point where, when it came to competitions, and it seemed that most other fencers has also had issues with this where when you're fencing somebody who you know you're better than.
So, after the first few competitions, national events, you start seeing these people more often. This is a very small community. Miles Chamley-Watson, Alex Massialas, like the people who always looked up to and you watched on the videos. One day you ended up having to fence them. I think one definite challenge that I had was trying to overcome that where, “Oh, he's just so much of a better fencer than I was. He was the guy who just won like the recent World Cup.” Having that mental toughness really was an obstacle for me. I think a lot of it that helped a lot was fencing a lot getting yourself involved, getting adjusted to the environment, talking with my coaches, and trying to improve myself as well.
One thing that I really thought helped me overcome things was sticking with the foundations of my fencing. The fundamentals like advancing, retreating, your lunging, just the small things. The simple things to help you progress into the complex things. Those actions I think, really helped me progress into the competitive stage and build that confidence. Because I think a lot of people who have the issue, kind of get breakthrough that, once they finally beat someone like that. Once they get through that stage, they're like, “Oh, maybe I'm actually within range of these fencers.” Then, from there, it exponentially grows.
[0:05:43] BW: Yes, totally. I could see that being intimidating. Someone has that aura around them, and you're like, “Well, how am I ever going to even get a touch on this person? Let alone, be competitive against them.” So, at some point, as you mentioned, you thought maybe refereeing might be something for you. Do you remember like the light bulb going off and you being like, “Yes, actually, I could see myself putting on that suit and giving it a try?”
[0:06:09] NJ: Yes. For majority of my fencing career, I would say, I wasn't entirely focused on refereeing. It was definitely something that we utilized at our club a lot, because it was very important to understand, like, why these touches were being called this way. So then, when it came to the competitions, you have a decent idea, like, “Oh, this makes sense and this is why this was called.” Also, at our club, if you wanted to fence the good fencers, you needed to referee them. So, it's kind of like calling dibs on the fencers. Like, “Hey, I'll referee this bout and then I’ll fence the winner.”
[0:06:40] BW: Oh, that's interesting. So, that's your ticket to get in there and get a shot
[0:06:43] NJ: Yes. That's how it worked. That’s how it worked at our club. And over time, just fencing all these good fences and refereeing a lot, I think, it was my junior year of high school, where one of my teammates, his name is Nolan and he's also at the time a national referee at the time, and he told me, “Hey, there's a tournament hosted in Treasure Island. They're looking for referees. And if you're interested, I could totally drive you up there and see if you like it or not.” That day, I was like, “Okay, maybe I'll give it a shot.”
Because at the time, I thought it was okay. It was definitely a fun thing to do. Definitely outside of my comfort zone and I went for it. The next day, my mom and I are getting clothes, like dress shirts, pants, some shoes, and the following day, we just immediately went to that competition. I, honestly, didn't think I was worried too much. But it was definitely a very unique first debut as a referee. The pools went pretty well at the competition. It was very interesting, because there are a lot of the fencers that I competed against at the time, and it was weird being in that position where I'm the one making the calls for them. And they would recognize me and they’re like, “Oh, you're a referee now.” I was like, “Yes. I'm trying it out and seeing what's happening.”
Pools went pretty well. I say, yes, what really made it a very unique experience is the DEs, actually, where there were two fencers, it was a White 10 Men's foil belt. Right off the bat, there was an action where it was very unclear to me at the time and I called it one way. Apparently, I think it was the right call. And one side coach was like, “No, that was absolutely incorrect. Absolutely, absolutely incorrect.” At that time, I was like, “Oh, maybe I'm wrong about that.” So, the next touch, the same action happens again. I'm like, “Oh, maybe he is right about this one.” And then I call it the other way. The other side's like, “No, why did you change? Why did you have to change this call?” Since it was White 10, it was only up to 10 touches. So, each touch was very, very important.
Unfortunately, it was pretty much the same action over and over and over again, to a point where it was actually 9-9. Last touch, the same action happens again. Lucky for me, I called for the fencer who was supposed to get the touch, and other side absolutely erupts in frustration, disappointment and like, “I cannot believe this call.” And then the fencer throws his mask across the room. I didn't know what to do at the time. I thought it was like not a great, great time for me. Behind me, I get a tap from one of the head referees and he shows me a black card. He says, “He threw his mask. You have to get the black card.” So, I black-carded the fencer.
So, for my refereeing debut, I don't know how worse it could ever be, other than having to give a black card.
[0:09:34] BW: Yes, make a call at 9-9, a decisive call on one of those 50/50 calls and then also give a black card. It's insane.
[0:09:41] NJ: Yes, from there on. I think I may have taken a break. But over time, I feel like I was more comfortable doing these opportunities, and I just kept doing it kept going for it. Eventually, one day there was a competition where one of my current mentors, his name is Jason, Jason Chang, and he asked me, “Hey, if you want to referee the national competitions, you could totally do it if you'd like. I can observe you, give you your ratings, and you can get going.” I knew Jason already at the time, because he fenced out one of the clubs I was really good friends with. He was like, “Hey, if you want to give it a shot, you can go for it.” That was a really good opportunity to because the March NEC coming up, and it was one of the easier events since it's a youth event. The action is maybe a little bit more complicated, but the actions are slower, which is a good way to get yourself into the national scene. I went for it, I tried it out. And gradually over time, just moving up the ranks and then just practice a lot, worked hard, met a lot of great people, until eventually where I am today.
[0:10:47] BW: Seeing a theme of like people who were more experienced referees saying to you, “Hey, come give this a try. I see something in you. I think you have a gift here.” And obviously, they were right, and you're still here and doing an amazing job. When I talk to people, they say, “He's a great referee.” But I got to say, I don't always know what they mean by that. So, in your mind, what does make a great referee?
[0:11:16] NJ: Yes. For me, I think it really comes down to four things. The first and most important thing is, you have to show up on time. That seems to be like a very core value that a lot of our referees embody. Making sure we're on time, we're here, knowing that we're going to give our best refereeing.
[0:11:33] BW: Just like we ask for the fencer.
[0:11:34] NJ: Yes, professionalism. When we have a call, like a bout, be there and ready for it. Being on time is very, very important. And I actually had to learn it the hard way, where there was an experience where I did show up late. Since then, I really, really tried my best to never do that again.
[0:11:55] BW: That's a mistake you learn once, right?
[0:11:57] NJ: Yes, only one time. The following day after that, I showed up right when the doors open, because I felt so bad.
[0:12:04] BW: Yes, of course.
[0:12:05] NJ: Since then, that’s definitely a value of a great referee, that a lot of people have to embody. Another very important thing, I think, is to dress very nicely. I think dressing to impress is very important, not only for the fencers, but also for yourself, to build that confidence to give those calls, and other people trust more or less if they see somebody who looks pretty well fitted.
[0:12:28] BW: Yes, I believe that.
[0:12:30] NJ: Then, another value, of course, is the calls. I think that's primarily what the fencers want, correct calls. To get those calls, of course, it takes practice, it takes time. And also, in your own time putting in the work, watching your own bouts, maybe fencing on your own as well. Those opportunities, I think, are really good ways to help improve your goals. Then, I think the last one for me is strict management. You're the one leading the entire bout. The fencers are there, there's coaches, there's parents. You have to look around the entire environment and see, “Hey, I'm the one in charge. I got to make sure everything is under control. If a coach blows up or a fencer blows up, you have to make sure you have that strict management, because it's important in controlling the bout, and maintain the trust with the fencers.”
[0:13:19] BW: Yes, creating that environment that everybody deserves to fence in, right?
[0:13:23] NJ: Yes.
[0:13:23] BW: You're also going to school, getting your PhD. So, kind of pivoting to that a little bit. It occurs to me that if you're fencing and refereeing, and also a student working on your PhD, and have friends and a social life, do you have a strategy for balancing your time and making sure you can do everything you want to do?
[0:13:44] NJ: Yes, of course, it's always a progressing thing, and I'm always learning and trying to get better, and try to find extra time for myself. But yes, it really comes down to a lot of time management and balancing between these three things. School definitely takes a lot of time since you got classes, you got lab, you got your homework, you got exams to study for. On top of that, you're probably doing some extracurriculars, organizations outside of school, volunteering, things like that. If you're fencing and also spending your weekends off refereeing, it really can get really challenging balancing these three things within each other. Also, finding the time for yourself as well. Finding those breaks.
[0:14:22] BW: Sure. Hopefully, there’s some time to carve out for that.
[0:14:26] NJ: Yes. There are. It has been getting better. I think one of the core things that really helps me balance these three things out is communication. Making sure in advance, you're talking to your professors and the people around you. Just getting to know them and seeing them face to face. Just whenever any free time you have, just try to converse with them and let them know what's going on within my situation. And as long as you let them know in advance, and you're pretty reasonable, and you either get the work done in advance or have some accommodations, the professors and the teachers usually are pretty reasonable about it. Of course, a lot of it too, is making sure that you're on top of your material. Studying at home. There isn't too much time to really slack off, I'd say. But –
[0:15:13] BW: That communication piece makes a lot of sense, because I imagine it's easier to just say, “Hey, I'm going to be out of town at a fencing tournament, so I'm not going to be able to make it to class.” But actually, putting in the legwork to go in and have that conversation probably pays off, I would imagine, and they appreciate that.
[0:15:34] NJ: Yes, definitely an undergrad. I think they were very lenient about it. But gradually as you go into grad school, they're not as lenient about it, in terms of you can miss a few of these, but you can't miss it consistently.
[0:15:45] BW: Makes sense.
[0:15:47] NJ: For instance, this NEC, I couldn't do all four days, because Fridays, I have a lab to attend to. I have classes to attend and they let me go for October NEC and for the FIE exam, but it's like two, and that's pretty much it. That's all you have for the semester.
[0:16:03] BW: It's about making choices, right?
[0:16:04] NJ: Yes.
[0:16:04] BW: You can't be in two places at once.
[0:16:08] NJ: Yes. So, there's probably some sacrifices you have to make between these three. But more or less, I think communication, letting them know in advance is very, very important.
[0:16:17] BW: So, you went to UC San Diego, and you talk about as an undergrad, you had to make some of those decisions as well. What was your experience like there just balancing all your commitments that you had as an undergrad? Because we have a lot of listeners and parents of students who are either in college now or will be soon.
[0:16:37] NJ: Yes, definitely going into college is a completely new experience. You're in a completely new environment. There’s new people around you. The school system is completely different. You kind of like on your own, rather than in high school, where you have the comfort of your house, your parents around you. You have to make your own decisions. And sometimes if you don't have those skills and capabilities, it can be kind of hard to balance things out. So, for my first few years, it was actually pretty challenging, balancing it out. But overtime, just practicing and making sure you're finding ways to find those extra bits of time. Just like in the previous question, I think communication is very, very important.
Being on the fencing team at the time really helped as well. Our head coach, Coach Juan Ignacio, he really embodied communication within us. He said, “Hey, if you're going to be trying to balance school, while also being on the team, you got to be able to communicate. Let these professors know in advance.” “Hey, I'm going to be out for a competition. I'm going to be out maybe to referee.” So yes, letting them know in advance is very important. He always told us at the beginning of school, right on day one, that's when you have to find that opportunity to talk to them. “Hey, I'm going to be missing these things.” You have office hours, anyways, to make it up. Emailing them. Always just being very proactive and trying to get yourself out there. Let them know what's going on. Because then you have the most likely case that they'll give those accommodations.
[0:18:04] BW: I got to think with a West Coast school to that your travel is even more complex. Because there's not a ton of tournaments on the West Coast. So, you're not getting on a bus to go to every college meet. So, that makes it even more challenging.
Speaking of travel, shifting gears, again, I want to talk about the FIE exam that you took in El Salvador. Obviously, in your academic career, you would have taken a lot of difficult exams. Where does this one rank, and what was that experience like?
[0:18:32] NJ: Oh, yes. It was definitely challenging, but in its own way. It was nothing like a school exam or anything like that. It was a different level of pressure. At the time, I was actually transitioning, moving into New York at the time. And when I received the email saying that I was going to referee the competition, I was in Uruguay. And it was about a month in advance and I was thinking, “Okay, I'm moving, I got school to go, and I got this exam to also prepare for.” It was definitely a little stressful at first, but I was pretty confident that I was able to balance things out. Definitely studying. I probably didn't get to study too, too much about it. But I was very confident that I'll be okay.
[0:19:11] BW: Were you worried that like they're going to ask about some sort of obscure rule that maybe only would happen, one in every thousand bouts or something? I'd be like, cramming and like, “Oh, they're going to ask me about this random how tall should the letters be on the back of the” –
[0:19:26] NJ: Yes. The structure of the exam is actually a little bit different now, where it's not like a verbal question like that. The first section is a written section where it's a multiple-choice exam. The second is a video exam, which is the one that most people have the most pressure, and they need to prepare as much for. It's like 10 clips and you have to call at least eight of them correctly.
[0:19:45] BW: And these are all obviously not clear-cut calls.
[0:19:49] NJ: Yes. There are no freebie questions when I did it. And the last exam is a practical where you go in person and you referee some fencing while they watch you from behind.
[0:19:57] BW: Gotcha, which that's got to be intense too.
[0:20:00] NJ: Yes. Like you were saying, though, there are a few times where they do ask you very abnormal questions. For instance, I think the other USA referee who went in with me, he was shown a video call and he made the call. I think, I would have called it the same way too. But apparently the answer was completely out of the ordinary. It was like a touch that he called. The referee said, “No, you have to give a card for abnormal fencing.” I felt like that was something that they were probably testing for. But I think it was a little unfair of a question.
[0:20:30] BW: That's tricky.
[0:20:30] NJ: Yes. But my experience there was very, very stressful for the first few days. But I spent some extra time afterwards, after the exam just to enjoy the area.
[0:20:39] BW: Oh, nice. I was wondering that, when you said you were in Uruguay, and I know you travel quite a bit for fencing, refereeing. I was like, do you get to enjoy these places at all?
[0:20:49] NJ: Yes. Not all the time, you have those extra days to go and travel and have fun. But the good news for that was I talked to my professors and let me go because the exam you had to leave on a Wednesday. So, that's three days of school that you have to miss.
[0:21:04] BW: It's not ideal.
[0:21:04] NJ: And the first exam, I think it was on a Thursday. It’s a two-day exam, the first two sections on day one. And if you pass those two sections, you go into the following day, which is on Friday, which is the practical. From my experience, I was very lucky to have the other USA referees, I mean, at the time. Harrison, who was the sabre referee, representing the US, his exam was one day before ours. And last minute, they ended up changing the location of the event, the facility, and Harrison texted, “Oh, it's a completely different facility. You got to make sure you go to this one and not that one.”
[0:21:40] BW: That's good. You got a heads-up.
[0:21:41] NJ: I was lucky that I got a bit of a heads-up. Not only that, even though he was taking the sabre exam, it’s pretty much the same exact structure. So, he gave a bit of a heads up, like, “Oh, this is how the written is like. This is what they're going to do.” Because every exam is pretty unique in its own small ways. The video around, for instance, usually, they show the clip, and you ask for another time to see it. But immediately, the slo-mo version of it comes preceding the touch. And I think that caught him off guard a little bit. And it was good to have that information coming in.
[0:22:12] BW: Yes. Get a little heads-up about that as well.
[0:22:17] NJ: Yes. When me and the other USA referee got to the event that morning, it was really hard to find because it was at a university, I believe. It was one of the El Salvador universities. Within that university, there's just one little room, and that's meant for the refereeing. It was a very hard place to find. But I was very lucky because there was another referee who did the sabre exam the preceding day, and he told us, “Oh, this is the way to get there. And not only that, you have to know decent Spanish as well.”
[0:22:47] BW: Oh, perfect. I didn’t know you'd be tested on that as well.
[0:22:48] NJ: To get around there. So yes, me and the other referee, we made it to the exam. We took the written exam. I'd say the hardest part of it is definitely the waiting. The waiting part. Took the written section. We're outside, waiting for a good 45 minutes, 45 to 50 minutes and –
[0:23:08] BW: And you're probably going over every question like, “Okay.”
[0:23:11] NJ: Exactly. Because you can only get two wrong, in order to pass, and there's 15 questions and you can always just be overthinking or second-guessing yourself while you're outside, and the waiting part is definitely the hardest.
[0:23:27] BW: So, help me paint a picture. You're outside of a university building in El Salvador and you’re just kind of pacing around, and inside they’re grading the exam?
[0:23:36] NJ: Yes. They’re probably just grading them, okay. And yet the process is very long. Outside, it's also very human at the time, because everybody's has their blazers off. They're all sweaty. On top of that, with the pressure. Yes, we're just waiting. And the results come out after 15 minutes, and I think there were about maybe 16 to 17 referees who took that exam and I think, only 10 passed.
[0:23:58] BW: Are they reading, these people –
[0:24:00] NJ: Yes,the way they did it was everybody comes back into the room, and they read one by one, the people that passed for the following round. We get a small break, the next video around begins, and they have the order for us. Of the 10 referees, I was number eight. The video around is definitely the most stressful one. That's the one that I say most of the USA referees have the most challenge with. That's really the deciding factor. We're waiting outside as they go one by one. The first one goes in and then comes out. He looks like he was shaking.
[0:24:34] BW: That doesn't help your stress level.
[0:24:37] NJ: Definitely. Because after talking to a lot of the referees who have previously taken the exam, they told me, “Hey, you got to watch out because it's a completely different environment.” It's not like you could ref as many like finals or get as much information and insight about it. But it's just not the same as what you are inside that room.” So, when it was my turn, I go in. It's a dark room. There's a screen in front of you. They two judges on each side. And immediately just say, “All right, ready when you're ready, begin.” I go, “On guard.” And then, touch immediately happens. The good news is Matt, who was previously on the podcast gave me a lot of good advice telling me that it's important to have a really good start going into it.
I really tried to build up my confidence. I'm telling that, “Hey, I was here because they knew I was good enough for it.” I came in pretty confident and ready to go, like it was like game time, just like it was like any other bout. The first touch happens and it's a core, core to a void touch where the fencer takes the blade, and the fencer who got parried goes into the opponent to try to get a halt off. And they're looking for whether or not you could call that. The answer is a card. So, I had to give a card out. Generally, that's one of the more harder ones that you're going to find and having that one right off the bat, definitely kind of caught me by surprise, but I was very ready for it.
[0:25:57] BW: Do you know that you got – were they like, “That's correct.” Or do you have to wait till the end to know whether you –
[0:26:02] NJ: They don't tell you if it's correct. They say, “Okay.” They just say, “Okay.”
[0:26:05] BW: Oh, my God. So, you're thinking, “I think I got it right.” Maybe –
[0:26:09] NJ: Yes, they kind of make you second guess. It’s part of the game, because they're trying to replicate that same environment at the highest level to try to find the best referees possible for the FIE fencing and the next touch. It was a box touch, just like a simultaneous action. But one fencer just makes a small error and they were looking for those actions, too, because those are what they look for at the FIE event. Box touch happens, and I'm thinking, “Okay, I caught that one. It was very tight, but I'm going to give the touch.” They seem pretty good with it.
The third action, it was another card action. And the fourth action was a point-in-line touch. So, the first four touches already can get you a decent idea of how hard these rounds are going to be.
[0:26:49] BW: Like you said, there's no give me.
[0:26:50] NJ: Yes, there are no give me. They're all touches that where at a national event, would get videoed, maybe. And you'd go back, take a look, and then come back and make the call. I think they're literally trying to like to see if you're comfortable in those moments. The next few touches were pretty much all the same. I'd say there was one instance where I actually give a touch. The judge actually told me afterwards, “Hey, I don't think that that was the right answer.” And she tells me to look at it again. I look at it. And I think, “Oh, maybe I was wrong about that.” And I changed the call. You're allowed to change maybe one call. You get like one freebie. From there, you get kind of marked down. You can ask a few times as well to look for the slo-mo as well. But yes, coming out of that exam, I definitely didn't feel as if like I killed it or anything like that. I just felt like, we'll see what happens. The results come out and I was very happy that I passed.
I couldn't even believe it either. I was asking the other referee. Did you hear my name? I was just making sure. And if you pass that exam, the next day is the practical. So, you wait the following day, and you go through that exam. I'd say that part wasn't too bad either. I think most people who get to that section pass, and it was definitely stressful still. But that was pretty much my refereeing experience at El Salvador. The hardest part was a lot of the waiting.
[0:28:09] BW: So, after the video part, you pass that, and then you get the thumbs up that you've been advanced to the next round, right? Which is the practical. So, these are actually a couple of fencers who come in and are they told to do difficult actions as well? Or like, intentionally do something that would deserve a card?
[0:28:32] NJ: Yes, from what I heard from talking to other referees and their experiences, it turns out like the judges kind of tell the fencers like, “Hey, try to make some difficult actions for these referees to see whether or not they can call it or not.” Lucky for me, though, they didn't tell the fencers at this time. However, a different challenge where a lot of fencers showed up. So, what they did were giant pools. Normally like Matt or other FIE referees who are testing would only do like a few bouts, and then they would be done. Me and the other USA referee ended up I think, refereeing about nine bouts each.
So, more of a sample size and room for error that these judges are looking for. After we finished the practical, they sit us all down, and they tells us that they all passed. We all pass. And there are only four of us that made it to that final round. They tell us, “Hey, you passed.” And the funny thing about the way it works is they tell you pass. But afterwards they tell you, “You all need more experience. You guys got to look at the rulebook. You got a lot of errors, things you got to work on, keep refereeing and making sure you got everything that you're on top of these things.”
[0:29:36] BW: So, your confidence is high, and then they're like, “You passed but” –
[0:29:40] NJ: Yes. I think they intentionally do that just so you don't feel as if like, “Oh, I passed. I'm good enough for this. I can keep going.” They always just want to make sure you keep pushing yourself, keep progressing, and getting better.
[0:29:50] BW: Yes. You don't want to get complacent. So, you talked about some of the people who inspired you and encourage you to get out there and advance your refereeing. But flipping the script, what advice do you have for someone who's listening to this, and they're just now starting to say, “Hey, maybe I want to try a Treasure Island”, or wherever your first one was, “that level of referring to see maybe if they're good enough.”
[0:30:14] NJ: For me, of course, Treasure Island was probably the hardest first experience that you're going to have.
[0:30:20] BW: Yes. You wouldn't wish that on anyone seeing that I'm still here shows that it’s not too bad. I say refereeing is definitely challenging. It has its parts where it can be very tiring. It can be exhausting. But some advice I would give for the future generation is that you're going to make mistakes as a referee. It’s not easy making these very split decision calls. Coaches getting mad at you. There's a lot of pressure on the line. They expect perfection as a referee. And they're going to be times where you mess up before four, or 14-14 touch bout.
The important thing is not to think about whether or not like, “Oh, I messed up”, and feel upset about it. Because that's how I used to take the approach. I think a very good advice to give is like, “Hey, you made the mistake, but just know that, why you made the mistake and how you can improve from it.” The next time you see that action, make sure you can make that adjustment.
Gradually, over time, you're going to be seeing these mistakes happen more often. And as long as you can see it again and make that correction, makes things a lot easier. Other advice that I would give is get to know your colleagues very well. I say, I couldn't be where I am today, without all my friends, people around me, my mentors. Everyone in support of me. Coaches, get to know them, get their perspective, get their advice, and it'll definitely come a long way. Other thing is make sure you practice a lot. Like I said earlier, you can't just go in thinking, “Oh, as long as I see the actions, I see fencing, I'll call it.” A lot of practice comes into play too. I think behind like either fencing or watching film or watching senior World Cups or Olympics, you can make these mistakes on the computer, so then you don't have to do it on the strip.
[0:32:05] BW: I was going to ask like you say practicing. That doesn't always mean in person. Sometimes you'll sit and watch videos of high-level tournaments from recent years.
[0:32:17] NJ: Yes.
[0:32:17] BW: That's cool.
[0:32:18] NJ: Yes, of course, it's not the same as when you're on the strip, in the real-time, like seeing the fencers and making the calls. But seeing these actions over and over at the high level, on a computer screen definitely helps. Watching like senior level and being able to call those can translate pretty well to like the national level that we have here in fencing. It definitely has helped me a lot. And of course, dressing nicely, showing up on time are also very important things, good advice that I give for future generations.
[0:32:45] BW: Yes. It goes back to the basics. So, you have obviously already accomplished a lot, but you're still a young referee. I would imagine, a lot more that you want to do and want to accomplish. So, what are some of those goals that you have? You've got your FIE license. Where do you want to go next?
[0:33:05] NJ: Yes. Moving into the East Coast is a completely different environment. New coaches, new fencers, you're not as well recognized as I once was in West Coast. I refereed competition in Chicago, and I didn't know any of these fencers or coaches, or parents. And they'd be like yelling at you, like the trust is definitely not the same, because you're not as recognizable as you were like, over where you refereed your entire life at.
[0:33:29] BW: So, you can sense that, that you don't have that reputation in that region yet.
[0:33:32] NJ: Yes.
[0:33:33] BW: Interesting.
[0:33:34] NJ: So, being on the east coast for about a few months, and refereeing just a few competitions, definitely, it's a different environment. And I think progressing forward, I want to see how I can get into those environments and get adjusted to them. The east coast has a really good collegiate scene compared to the west. There are a lot of competitions back-to-back weekends, and those competitions can get really intense, right? Because it's a team-based style. There are crowds on the side. That additional level of pressure and strict management are really good ways to practice when it comes to refereeing the Junior World Cup and maybe the Senior World Cup in the future.
So, getting myself immersed in those collegiate competitions definitely will help. Fencing-wise, yes, it's a really good opportunity to fence at the athletic club. My roommate, James invited me there, and it’s really high-level fencing. In terms of future aspirations in that aspect, as long as I can balance out the time, I hope that I can continue to keep fencing and get there more regularly, and making sure that I can at least get back to, at least at a decent state of what it used to be as a fencer. Then, maybe along the line, we could keep fencing and competing at the national competitions.
[0:34:41] BW: Yes. We've been talking mostly about refereeing, but obviously, you're still fencing as well and you still love that. It seems like it'd be super difficult to do both, to like, “I want to be a great referee and I want to be a great fencer.” Do you ever find yourself saying, “I'm going to go down this one path and the other one's going to have to take a back seat for a little while?” Or is that not happening yet?
[0:35:04] NJ: It does have a little bit at the moment. You have to make some sacrifices. There's a lot of time coming in for each one of them. And I think fencing for me, has been the one that has sacrificed the most. Because as a fencer, you always have to make sure you're on top of like, you're going to practice regularly. You're taking care of yourself, good health, and injuries, watching film all the time. You always got to be very active, and you got to make sure you got to go off to these competitions all the time. That one definitely takes a lot of time, compared to refereeing where it's more or less, like, as long as you can have a consistent watch a few bouts and like go to consistently more tournaments, referee them, refereeing and fencing, I’d say fencing would take a little bit more time than refereeing in terms of just the commitment. And you have to take a sacrifice for a few of them and find that balance. But gradually, over time, I think I'll be able to find more time for fencing and see where it goes.
[0:36:03] BW: I love that. Yes. Lastly, every fencer seems to have like a dream. They went to NEC, make a senior team, make the Olympics. As a referee, do you have a dream like that? You're like, in 5 or 10 years, I'd love to do X.
[0:36:20] NJ: Well, I didn't expect to get to this far. So, I never really exactly had any real goals about it. What I really like wanted to do was get into the travel team, cadets. That was my initial goal, just so I can travel with my brother, since he's coming up, and I got that opportunity which was really nice. I got to see him [inaudible 0:36:39]. I got to see him fence at Napoli. And I'd say the next step is see him fence up the Junior World Cups. That would be really nice. So, being alongside my family and see my brother compete in the process, I think those are pretty much what I would say are my goals at the moment. Of course, refereeing at the highest level would be great. But from there, I think it's a little too far. I had those aspirations. I'd like to take the smaller goals.
[0:37:05] BW: Yes. I love that. Well, Nathan, thanks so much for joining us, and yes, it's been a really fun conversation. I know you got to get back out there and referee this NEC. So, thanks for taking some time. Best of luck going forward.
[0:37:16] NJ: Thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:37:17] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the Strip. Bye.
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