Our guest is Nathan Anderson. Nathan is not only the Head Coach and Owner of Denver Fencing Center but also a former member of USA Fencing’s Board of Directors and the current Board Chair of the Denver Fencing Foundation.
With a career spanning over several decades, Nathan has left an indelible mark on the fencing world. He started fencing at the age of 15 and has since accumulated more than 30 national medals across all three weapons, including 8 National Gold medals, and has been a 2x National Champion. His accomplishments extend to the international stage, where he was part of the 2014 Pan American Championship-winning team and a 2023 World Team member. I actually got to see him fencer down there in Daytona Beach this past October.
Beyond his personal achievements, Nathan has been instrumental in nurturing talent at all levels. He has coached National Medalists in every age group in USA Fencing and guided athletes to National Championships in Foil, Epee, and Saber. His expertise has also led to success on the world stage, coaching individual and team world champions.
In today's episode, we'll explore Nathan's journey in fencing, his vision for the sport, and his unique approach to coaching and mentoring.
[INTRO]
[0:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell, and in this show you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in the sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. So, whether you're an Olympian or a Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:40] BW: Today, we welcome Nathan Anderson. Nathan is not only the head coach and owner of Denver Fencing Center, but also he's a former member of USA Fencing Board of Directors, and the current Board Chair of the Denver Fencing Foundation. He's got a career spanning several decades, and he's definitely left an indelible mark on fencing already and isn't stopping anytime soon. He started fencing at 15 and has since accumulated more than 30 national medals across all three weapons, including eight gold medals. He's a two-time national champion and then internationally, he was part of the 2014 Pan Am championship winning team. In a 2023 World Team, I remember, I actually got to see him fence down there in Daytona Beach this past October.
Then, beyond those personal achievements on the Strip, he's also been instrumental in nurturing talent at all levels. He's coached national metals medalists in every age group in USA fencing, and has national championships among his fencers in foil, épée, and sabre. His expertise has also led to success on the world stage, coaching individual, and team champions at that level as well.
So today, we're going to talk with Nathan about his fencing journey, his vision for the sport, what it's like to be a club owner at a successful club and a bunch more. So, Nathan, welcome to the podcast.
[0:01:52] NA: Well, thanks for having me, Bryan.
[0:01:54] BW: Yeah, this is going to be really an interesting conversation. You and I have had some of these same conversations, and now we get to capture them on the record. We talked at NACs and at tournaments, about the sport, and you've taught me a lot about it, as myself being a newcomer. But first, let's talk about Denver Fencing Center. When we were chatting, you said that there's a 100-year plan for Denver Fencing Center. I know that there's not a lot of places that have 100-year plans. You hear a lot about 5 and 10-year plan. So, what is that plan and how are you going to make it a reality for DFC?
[0:02:25] NA: Well, when I first decided to open the club, one of the things that I was caught thinking was that you see the best clubs in the country. There are over 100 years old. You look at New York Athletic Club, Fencer’s Club, Boston Fencing Club, they're all over 100 years club. So, why in my city, did we not have that? First, it was like, “Okay, can we make a fencing club that is successful?” So, we started with that, and we kind of build a five-year plan. And then we were like, okay, we're looking at the 10-year mark, we were like, “Okay, well, what's going to make us more successful?” Well, we have to be permanent. We have to have a building that was built, and we have to own that building, so that we can be there permanently.
So, we did that. Then, we wanted to start having like, all walks of people come into the club. So, we started a foundation to kind of help bring in people that you wouldn't normally see in a club. That's kind of morphed in. Ultimately, we're trying to create a culture where we can be the Athletic Club, the Fencer’s Club, Boston Fencing Club, someplace where people see fencing for 100 years in their city. That's been kind of our goal.
[0:03:35] BW: Has that been a challenge at all in a city like Denver that is obviously a major city, big sports town, but doesn't have quite as much fencing history as New York and as Boston, and other places that have produced Olympians. What was the challenge like there, starting a club in a city where fencing is maybe not quite as immediately well known?
[0:03:56] NA: Initially, I mean, we had, when we first opened the club, we actually had like a six-month backlog of people taking beginner classes that really wanted to do this. So, we knew that there was demand there. But then the job was to take these like six months’ worth of beginners and then we had a small subsection of like 18 experienced people, and then try to get those beginners up to the level where they felt comfortable fencing, people that did fence at a national level, that kind of thing.
So, we had to kind of build the whole pyramid of people building up, and then eventually we had to build three pyramids because we wanted to be a three-weapon club. So, we had to build a foil pyramid, épée pyramid, and sabre pyramid of classes and lessons across the club to kind of get people up to a level where they felt comfortable. That was kind of a huge challenge. It’s not like we're in New Jersey, where like fencers are in every high school, and you can just find fencers all over the place. We had to introduce our sport to people and kind of get out in front of people and we're still doing tons of that, like trying to get out in front of people and say, “Hey, this is an opportunity.” Because usually when you locate a fancy club you don't you locate it like right in people's face, like on Main Street. It's usually like in this back area, in a part of town they haven't seen. So, trying to get in front of people and tell them that there's opportunity and word of mouth is huge and fencing.
If you can get people that can get other people, or you get a kid fencing, but their parents want to fence, then you can kind of grow the club that way. So, that's been kind of a big part of our growth was like trying to first make sure that everybody who came into the club like felt accepted, felt valued. Then, also, having like, when people came into the club, I didn't want them to go, “Oh, well, I don't like foil. I'm leaving fencing.” So, we quickly went to foil, épée, sabre so that we could capture every single person coming into the door. “Okay, you're a sabre fencer, you’re a foil fencer, you’re an épée fencer.” We call it like the Harry Potter sorting hat. We're trying to –
[0:06:01] BW: I just thought of that. Yes.
[0:06:02] NA: Yes, we're trying to sort them in different ways to get them to the right weapon. So, a lot of our beginner classes is just, is what we call the Harry Potter sorting, we're just trying to put them in the right house. That's kind of how we view it, and it's a lot of fun that way, because it's like, “Okay, which house are you? Which weapon are you?”
[0:06:21] BW: So, what's the magic behind that sorting hat? How do you look at a young person who comes in and say, “I think you're going to like this weapon the best.” Obviously, I imagine part of it is, they get to experience all three. But is there like something that you can see somebody and say, “This is going to be successful sabre fencer”, for example?
[0:06:40] NA: Well, the way I describe it to a lot of parents, when they're coming in is like, fencing requires the body type. You're going to see – you see Lee Kiefer, you see Miles Chamley-Watson. You see every body type, and all the weapons. That's what makes it great is that you don't have this very specific body type. But you have the personalities that are kind of directed towards different groups. So, you'll kind of see – so the way I describe it to parents is foil is creative. It's like art. You can follow rules, or you can break it. Épée, it's like black and white. Either you hit the person or you don't. That kind of black-and-white thinking usually attracts the doctors, lawyers, the software people. People that kind of work in a black-and-white environment. Then savers, like business, high risk yield.
So, a lot of times I think people's personalities kind of direct which weapon that they're going to like. And then sometimes the physicality of the way people move, directs them into that weapon. We look at kind of both their personality and their physicality. Then, usually they come to their own conclusion. It's a lot of times, and we'll run them in this beginner class until they've really, really come to a conclusion of what they are.
[0:07:54] BW: Yes, and ultimately, they want to get out there and compete and tournament, right? That's when people really feel that attachment to the sport, at least from what I hear from families and fencers. So, how do you decide as a coach and a club owner when someone is ready? If a parent says, “Hey, is he or she, is my fencer ready to go on to a regional tournament a national tournament? Or are they going to have a good experience there?” What’s generally your advice?
[0:08:21] NA: It’s like, listen to the fencer. A lot of times, some people are really hungry for the experience. When I first started out, when I was like, 15, I just wanted to go to tournaments. I wanted to go see every – I wanted to fence every possible opportunity I had. I didn't care if I won or lost or if I got beat, I was like, “Well, these guys have been offensive for 5 to 10 years, of course, I'm going to get beat. But some people don't have that mentality. Some people are going to be crushed if they go to the first tournament, and it's like, you're a type A overachiever, and you don't win.
[0:08:53] BW: Right. You’re out in pools, right?
[0:08:54] NA: You're out, and you're just like, “Oh, my God.” So, a lot of times you kind of have to mentally prepare people for what's going to happen, just like when you have maybe somebody on the spectrum, you're going to kind of set a game plan of their day, you're kind of setting even for everybody, you're kind of setting a game plan of what's going to happen at the tournament, what's the expectations. Your fencing juniors, but it's your first time. You're like 14. You're an E rated fencer, you're probably not going to make the cut. But if you're getting touches against these A's and B's, that's probably a good thing. That's shows that you can potentially hit the next level.
So, a lot of times I think setting those expectations and setting the tournaments such that every tournament is kind of at the right level. In a couple of weeks, we're going to run an enrichment tournament for like all these kids across the city that are taking fencing in their schools. So, they come to the club, and they get to try out a tournament with like, all the Olympic level gear that we have here, and maybe even if they're fencing the finals or on video replay.
You could do something like that, where it's just like, you're trying this out, you're having fun. And then we're probably going to do like the Sharks and Minnows format where like the people after the first pool, the good people go to one group, and the people that didn't do so well go to another group, and then they fence amongst themselves in another pool round. That way, it's a better experience for like lower level fencers, and also a better experience for higher level fencers. So, everybody kind of gets to fence at their level. That's one thing that we're going to kind of implement next month and it should be fun, and it should be kind of better than losing like 15-2 in your DE.
[0:10:36] BW: Yes, totally. It makes it a better experience for everybody. Speaking of making fencing better for everybody, the Denver Fencing Foundation, we mentioned in the intro that you're the board chair of that. What is the foundation's mission? Not every club has that kind of charitable arm to it. So, what is the mission there and a little bit of what you guys are most proud of so far?
[0:10:58] NA: Well, I mean, we're proud of a lot of things. I mean, this is to promote the sport of fencing across the city of Denver. So, we're promoting the sport in a ton of different ways that a lot of good organizations are doing. We first put all our enrichment classes under the foundation. We could we have 170 kids a week. Some are what we call fee-based. The parents are paying for the program. But then half of the kids in the program are grant-based, or the city, or sometimes DPS, or somebody comes in with a grant, and then they pay for these kids to take fencing. So, the foundation, because it's 501(c)(3) three can do either. So, we can basically have all these different programs at schools, and then have people that may not be able to afford it, have the same program that people that can't afford it. So, you have kind of sports equity. That's kind of the first part of the foundation. This kind of sports equity mission where everybody across the city gets to experience fencing.
The second part is parafencing, where we got a grant from the USOC, and whenever somebody gives me money, I always try to make their money be real powerful. So, we took their money, and we built a pretty good pair of fencing setup. Now, we're getting the athletes and we're getting them out to tournaments, and we have Scott Rogers and Josiah Taylor, fighting their way trying to make the Paralympics. And then we have different levels of people in the parafencing program, fencing this, and then we're trying to go out to – or we're trying to start a program with one of the local adaptive gyms. So, we have kind of a regular program there to kind of pull people, kind of like we do with the enrichment, that pulls people from the gym to the club, so that they have – it's good for the gym, because they have a reason to train in the gym. But then it's good for fencing, because we can find athletes for fencing. It's kind of a mutually beneficial thing. So, that's a second thing that we're working on.
Third thing we're working on, and this is kind of an offbeat one, we got a grant. When we started working with disabilities and people with disabilities, you realize that you have physical disabilities, but you also have intellectual disabilities. So, when we got grants, we realized that we had to be able to support both groups, because a lot of times you would bring in groups, and you'd have both groups in there. So, we have now, we do two classes a week with the intellectually disabled, which is worked out incredibly well and it's been awesome to have. Then, I realized, and this is me, I realized that there's – okay, we found this great opportunity. But now, we got to take it to the next level. So, it's like, okay, well, how do we get to sporting the Special Olympics? Fencing is not in the Special Olympics. I found that out when I looked this up.
So, how do we get to sport in the Special Olympics? I'm like, “Phil, how do we get to sport in the Special Olympics?” And Phil loves my questions like that, because we get to go solve a big problem. But it's cool, because for the intellectually disabled, like, they don't have a lot of gym programs. People aren't really developing gym programs too much for them. If you teach them épée, you hit somebody light goes on. So, it's relatively straightforward, and you move, and you make the lights go on. So, you can make fencing as simple and elegant as you can, and for them, they love this. They come every week. We've been getting more and more people every time and it's been cool. So, we're kind of excited about that.
Then the fourth thing that the foundation is doing is, and this is we're trying to work with like a lot of the recreational college clubs and see if we can kind of angle it so that it becomes like a DIV1 sport. So, we give a lot of support to various organizations, and check in with them, and see if we can kind of, anything that we can do to kind of make fencing a college sport. So, we've got those kind of four major things that we're doing right now, which is a lot. But it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. Actually, we got one more thing, we're hosting a block party because I want to meet all the people in the neighborhood. And we've got a grant, have basically shut down the street in front of the club, and then we're going to have a block party where we have music, food trucks, and all the businesses in this kind of, under, I forget what the city's word for it is.
Then, this up-and-coming neighborhood, shall we say, that we don't have a business district. A lot of the businesses don't meet each other. So, we're hoping that this event will kind of bring all the business together. I met the T-shirt person and the pottery person and all these different people, and trying to promote this event. We also have – that's what we've been doing and it's been kind of crazy and fun to do a lot of new stuff and take fencing in different directions that most people wouldn't even think of. But it's fun that way, because it's sometimes for me, you do a day job and you kind of get used to it. But then, it's always cool to do something new. So, this allows me and the employees and the foundation to do a lot of new things.
[0:16:01] BW: Yes. That's awesome. You've done so much with the foundation already. It does make me think, just purely like, this question is going to sound a little bit callous. But it's like, if you're a club owner, then at some point, you got to make and you got to pay yourself, and you got to pay your employees. So, why do all this with the foundation? Because it sounds like it takes a lot of time. Obviously, that means that you're having to divide your time between Denver Fencing Center in Denver Fencing Foundation. Cynic, a callous cynic might say, “Why are you making this a priority? Why not just make your club the most lucrative it can be?”
[0:16:40] NA: Well, I mean, the problem right now in sports is that it's kind of pay to play. If we can kind of change that environment, change that field, so that it's more equitable, you actually are going to – ultimately, we're potentially going to get more customers, I mean, for the gym. If you're just serving this subset of people that can afford your services, and there's this subset underneath that can't, but you could figure out a way that those people can afford your services, or maybe they're paying 1/3, and you're getting a scholarship for two thirds. Well, you can still have this kind of great – you can actually make the gym bigger, I think because you have those opportunities.
Yes. A lot of this work that like, all the stuff I do for the foundation, I'm the board chair, I don't get paid for any of it, and I'm working constantly. But ultimately, for me, to have everybody in the community see fencing, experience, fencing, have fun with fencing, it is more rewarding than making an extra, this amount of money or that amount of money. It's a lot more rewarding to – when you see parafencers win their first metal, you see the intellectually disabled fence bouts, and they're actually really pretty good and it's fun. It's almost like tear-jerking. I mean, in terms of all that stuff. We really need to see.
We had one of the foundation kids, he went through our foundation. And he's now at Cornell, and I met him at the Daniels Fund dinner, and he's getting supported by the Daniels Fund, and he's going to Cornell. So, it was great to see like a kid in the neighborhood of the club, take this opportunity, just like a lot of the other kids in fencing, and take it to the highest levels. So, that to me, is just rewarding. There's monetary rewards to anything, but then, there's also like these things that make you feel good, and make you sleep well at night. I enjoy some of the things that make you sleep well at night.
[0:18:45] BW: Yes. I love that. In a way, you're giving back to the sport that has given you so much. One thing that I love is that you're still a fencer, too, right? We talked in the intro about how you're still out there, fencing yourself, as if you have time. You're also a competitive fencer. So, what motivates you to do that and keep that part of your fencing experience alive?
[0:19:08] NA: I mean, I always talk in metaphor. So, I always think of this as the Teddy Roosevelt versus Dwight Eisenhower. A lot of coaches are Dwight Eisenhower. They've got their map, and they've got their plan, and they're going to map out your career. But I'm kind of Teddy Roosevelt. I'm like, going to be on the hill, leading the charge. If I'm going to win a medal, you're going to win a medal. I'm also going to be training as hard as you. I feel like that makes me a better coach because I relate to people better, because yes, I know what it is to go to PT. I was a PT this morning, working on my body. I know what that is. I'm going to feel like everything that you feel on this trip, I'm going to feel, and I'm going to feel that on a daily basis. So, for me, it's continuing to fence and have my career, it makes me more relatable as a coach, and it also makes me challenge kids. Like, “Hey, I trained like four days a week, this week. How many days were you here in the club? I went to weight training this morning and did my PT. Where were you?”
I think, if you can kind of set that high bar, then other people are going to want to do it too. I think, we started a practice. It was like 7am on Saturdays, and I said, “All my coaches are going to be fencing, and we're going to be training for tournaments, 7am on Saturday. If you want to fence us, that's when you're going to have to come.” So, these kids are like, “Oh, no, I'm never going to come.” Then eventually, they saw that we won all the metals, and they were like, “Okay.” They started showing up, and they started showing up earlier and earlier, so they could get more and more bouts. It worked out great. Sometimes I think, there are coaches that are great at being Dwight Eisenhower, but I'm not great at being Dwight Eisenhower. I'm more a Teddy Roosevelt guy.
[0:20:55] DW: Yes. You're leading the charge. I mean, they do see the results, right? That's what got you to vet worlds, right? You were one of the four best in your age category. So, the results are there, and it shows that that kind of hard work can take you to the highest level of the sport, right?
[0:21:10] NA: Yes. It's fun. I mean, you get to if you do all the good stuff, you get all the cool rewards. You get to go to Worlds or you get to go to the Pan American Championship, or you get to go to some cool place. I mean, sometimes you got to put in the work to get the reward. And I think for me, kind of leading the charge, and helping people understand how hard they're going to have to work, I think is helpful. Especially, it may be in Colorado, where people don't have like the crazy East Coast or West Coast mindset that they have to do everything to the nth degree. So, I think it's having somebody who has fun at this, but also trains really hard, I think is a good – to me, that's the role model I want to be.
[0:21:55] BW: Yes. Even as you're doing all that, you still are a business person who has to kind of keep his eye on the landscape of fencing. I'm curious, what are some changes that you've noticed and some expectations you have for the future of fencing, and how you're going to help guide the Denver Fencing Center, and your fencers themselves through it?
[0:22:17] NA: It's hard, because fencing is like a 4,000-year-old sport. If you visit Egypt, you see it on the hieroglyphics. I mean, you have all this rich history and tradition, but there's like – I mean, the cool thing about fencing is that we're 20, 30 years behind other sports. We don't do analytics. We don't do statistics. We don't do a lot of – I mean, people are doing some video analysis and things like that, and that's become kind of the big hip thing. But I think, in my mind, the cool part about the sport is, the thing I'm kind of currently working on, is trying to simplify the sport so that we can kind of make it easy for parents to understand how it works, how it does.
I'm on the tournament committee right now, and I'm trying to work on kind of simplifying the point, simplifying the past, simplifying everything so that we can kind of – the problem that we have right now is that our sport doesn't – it's so complicated. It's hard to explain to people or hard to explain how do you get from here to here. And if we can simplify that, that's the big thing that I want to be able to do and say, “Hey, you got to do this local tournament, then you do regional tournaments, then you do national tournament.” It's like this pyramid.
I think just like we built pyramids in the club, if we could build logical pyramids within USA fencing, I think that's the big thing that I'm kind of working on. Then, I think that would save time at the national office, save time in clubs, because people could kind of easily understand our sport, which you see in other sports, but you don't see in ours.
[0:23:49] BW: Yes, true. We've got some ways to go there. And I always describe it as kind of like an onion in a sense that you have to keep – the more layers you peel back, the more complicated it becomes. Do you want the one-minute explanation of fencing? Or do you want the 15-minute explanation, or the hour-long explanation all the different nuances at play here? So, anything we can do to simplify that is going to be a success for us.
Going back to the analytics, you and I were talking actually before we started recording about how there's a lot of potential there, and I'd love to hear from you, as a coach, of like what, if you had an unlimited budget, what would you spend it on when it comes to analytics to helping your fencers develop? I'm thinking of like these other sports, professional sports, obviously, with millions of dollars to spend, where you can see exactly how far the player traveled and exactly how much force they put behind this pitch or this throw. If you had a magic wand or an unlimited budget in fencing, what would you want to know to help your fencers?
[0:24:51] NA: A lot of it, I would want to know and this is oftentimes what I do when I'm like coaching people is like the situations that were winning. You see this in like basketball, like, “Oh, okay, we're going to run a play for this guy, because every time he's guarded by this guy, he scores a bucket. So, we just keep running a play on this guy. And like, the basketball teams run like analytics, and kind of things like that.” When I'm coaching, oftentimes I'll find an action that works or find a situation that works.
I mean, a lot of the books and things like that you read nowadays, don't talk about the actions and situations and stuff like that. I mean, so to me, the analytics are going to be kind of a big component of like, you fence better on this side of the strip, versus this side of the strip. You fence better in the middle. Which target do you hit the best? I personally know my analytics pretty well, and I know sometimes I hit certain targets much better than other targets. So, I'm constantly trying to play with the ability to hit the other targets and increase the probability that I'm going to score here versus there.
[0:26:01] BW: Well, let's pause that. So, how did you figure that out about yourself? How did you get that that data, those points to help yourself improve?
[0:26:09] NA: One thing I looked at, and I do this with a lot of people, it's like, what is their one superpower? So, my superpower is usually like, I got the strongest legs in the tournament. I can maneuver people up and down the strip. I can be explosive. I got the strongest legs. So, a lot of times, I'm setting up situations for those legs. I may be maneuvering you and kind of setting you up, and then I'm going to go fast at one point. So, it's a lot of times for me, trying to work on that situation, and knowing when I can trigger that situation. I know that's a high probability for me.
If I can just kind of find that moment, I can go. Certain people, if you're like Ruben Gascon, you're always going to flèche, right? He's a guy who won the 2012 épée. He's always looking for his moment when he's going to flèche. He may take a pair and make [inaudible 0:27:04] flèche, he may make a flèche, but he rarely ever lunges. He always flèches. So, how do you make it so that his flèche, which we know he's going to use, is even more successful?
I think that, and a lot of times when I'm working with athletes, I'm looking for that one thing that they're really good at, and then trying to kind of work with that, and play with that. So, a lot of times when you see fencers from my club, they're not going to be like cookie cutter. They all do the same action. You're going to see one person that does something completely different, because that's what they're really good at. And you see that in basketball, you see that baseball, you say like, “This guy's a home run hitter, or this guy's like a speedster.” I think fencing, like some clubs will just be like, “Okay, this is what we teach, and this is what we teach.”
But to me, like the analytics of watching somebody who has like a really good action like Lee Kiefer, flicking it over people's shoulder. She just blasts that thing over people's shoulder, and then they got to bring their hand up high to defend that. That opens up a whole bunch of other targets. So, you see like certain things that make individual athletes do that open up everything else.
I have one fencer in the club, that can kind of do that flick to the people's shoulder. It annoys the snot out of people, because they can't deal with it, and then their defense is all high, and then he can hit low. So, we played with that. Eventually, like he won a silver medal at a national tournament out of nowhere, because people couldn't deal with this, like one little thing that he could do. Even some of the top people like, we're like, “Oh, my God. How do you hit me on my back? It didn't make any sense.”
To me, if I could get technology and software and analyze, like, where you're hitting and what the probabilities of that hitting were. If your hand position like, if I could use the slow-motion cameras to analyze your hand position, would it be better here versus there? If I had all that technology at my fingertips, man, that would be even more fun. I mean, this would be more fun. I mean, it's like, you see it with basketball, where, what's the percentage of you shooting from this spot versus that spot? They know that, and then they're like, “Okay, well, we're going to train this guy to shoot from this spot, because he's 43%. But he's 36% over here. So, he goes to that spot.” The defense is like, “Okay, well, we know he's 43, so we're forcing him to go over to the 36% shot.” That’s, I think, where the sport is heading and I think it's really cool. But if we could simplify, I go back to my simplification. If we could simplify things, we'd have more time to do this stuff.
[0:29:38] BW: Yes. The complicated part of that is unlike basketball, there's a moving target and fencing too. So, there's so much analysis that has to be done. And although the playing surface is always the same size and consistent, everything else is not. So, you can see how the technology would have trouble like figuring out the target area on someone who's 6’2” versus 5’5”. Maybe that's one of the reasons, perhaps, why we're like you said, 20 to 30 years behind.
[0:30:06] NA: Yes. I think that's it, and I mean, also just the greatest thing about fencing is the amount of options you have, like the amount of crazy stuff you can do. It could be your small steps that score the touch. It could be when you extended the arm. It could be target you chose. It could be a random of different factors. But trying to come up with kind of flash analysis of when that happens, and why it happens, and why you score this touch versus that touch, to me that's fascinating. I have to do a split-second analysis, like, why my sabre fencer didn't get this call, versus the other person, and why this touch bounced off, but didn't hit in foil, or something like that. So, you're constantly, whatever they call it, quick slicing data, you're like quick cutting data and trying to figure out, is this the reason this touch works? I think our ability to do that, if we can do that better and better, is going to increase the quality of the answers that we create.
[0:31:06] BW: Yes, good point. It's like the real supercomputer that you need is the one that's in your head, right? That can identify those variables and make those adjustments in real-time. It's almost the fencer who can do that most quickly and effectively, it's going to be the one who ends up winning, maybe 7 or 8 times out of 10.
[0:31:24] NA: I mean, yes, they may not win them all, and nobody wants them all. But yes, I think that ability to analyze situations and see situations, because, I mean, there's the thing I constantly see, and I see this from low level to high low fencers, I call it angry toddler syndrome. It's like where you do something over and over and you never win. It’s like, your parents tell you, you got to go to bed, and you're like, “No, I don't have to go to bed.” And they just keep forcing you to go to bed. Or you're trying to score a touch, and you just keep trying it. But you're doing the same thing over and over. You'll see this happen to people where they get kind of stuck in this angry mode, where they're just going to try this touch and the other person solves it, and boom, boom, boom.
But then you can also see it from an analytical side, where somebody figures out a move that the person can't solve, and they just keep doing it, and [inaudible 0:32:14]. I won like a national championship on one action, one action I did five times in a row, and it was fun. So, you can sometimes find a quick action that just works, and you're just off to the races with that. That's what makes our sport really cool, is that we have to kind of keep a level head, and we have to do all these analytics. But then sometimes, the emotion is helpful, sometimes it's harmful. Our sport is very complex, and that's what makes it kind of awesome, is that you have all these complicated human variables, but once you solve them, you're probably a better person for it.
[0:32:48] BW: Yes, and it goes back to what we were talking about, how about how hard it is to explain to a newcomer, that's the exact reason why people love it too, right? Because it does have those nuances, and it's not just a simple sport that has a very straightforward goal to it. There's a lot of different ways to get there. Like you said earlier, a lot of different types of people who can be successful at it.
So, Nathan, as we wrap up here, I want to go back to something you said at the very beginning, which was the – we talked about your 100-year plan. Maybe we don't have to go quite that far into the future. But as somebody like you, who’s deeply invested in this sport, what is your vision for the future of fencing in the United States, and your hopes for what fencing will look like in Denver, at the Denver Fencing Center and beyond?
[0:33:36] NA: If we can kind of simplify our sport and explain it to people relatively quickly, we can get more people involved, and we can – so if we have like a simple kind of system where people try out our sport, they enter classes and kind of move up the chain, that's relatively simple. I think we can join the ranks of like soccer and basketball. We can kind of become a much bigger sport than we currently are, if we can kind of simplify that. And that's kind of my goal. Also, if you go to – I'm always comparing us to basketball. You see tons of people participating in wheelchair basketball. If you go to a basketball game, you'll see basketball being played among the intellectually disabled. You'll see it played in every neighborhood. We want to get fencing to the point where it's played in every neighborhood, where the education is such that you can play it, and you can learn to be a coach, to be a fencer, to be a referee. You want all that kind of simplified, such that you can grow this sport to be as big as the other major sports.
That's kind of my goal and that's kind of the goal of the foundation and the goal of the club, is that if we can kind of expand the base of people and kind of make this relatively easy to explain how to do this and how much fun it is, then I think we're going to – we can really expand our sport and have, maybe like the huge degrowth that some other sports, maybe like lacrosse or some other sports of pickleball have had in recent years. I mean, I think if we could kind of get to that point where people are like, “Oh, yes. That looks fun. Let's do it.” Then, they just have this little, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, up, and they can get up to the next level. And they see, “Oh, wait. There are 80-year-olds that do the sport. There are people all across.”
A lot of other sports, it's just accepted that there are like 70 or 80-year-old tennis players. Here, it's like, “Oh, you're a 70-year-old fencer.” It’s like, “No, no. It shouldn't be like, oh, yes, of course you play. Of course, you fenced this.” We want to get it to that point. Of course, it's in the Special Olympics. Of course, it's in the Paralympics, of course. We want to get to that, of course, and that's what I'm trying to really get to is the people really see our sport and really love it, and have the opportunity to take it to whatever level they want to take it, and it's pretty straightforward.
[0:35:59] BW: I love that. Yes, I think some people call fencing a niche sport and as if it's a foregone conclusion and it's always going to be that way. But it doesn't have to be. Certainly, with people like you driving the charge, we can question that and say, “Okay, is that a lost cause? Or can we actually kind of remove that label?”
[0:36:21] NA: Well, I mean, one of the Olympics, we were like the fifth metal sport for USA, if we're across USA sports, right? So, we're achieving success at the high levels. Why aren’t a million people out there doing this? Because you see, Colin Heathcock, and all these great people across the board, doing all this great stuff. So, you want to see like a much broader base. I would love to see that. I would love to see that broader base across the board, and see if we can kind of get our name out there. That’s why I love the stuff that you do, Bryan, because it helps kind of promote and get everybody to be able to see what the opportunities are.
[0:37:01] BW: That's fine. Well, thank you. The best part of my job is talking to people like you and helping shine a spotlight on all the great work that's being done out there. So, Nathan Anderson, Denver Fencing Center, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. I know we'll see you soon at a tournament. I hope anybody listening says hello to you as well, because you've got a lot of great ideas. One great thing about you, is you aren't keeping them to yourself. You're willing to share and help fencing ground however it can.
[0:37:27] NA: Yeah. Thanks very much, Bryan. It's always a lot of fun.
[0:37:30] BW: Thanks so much. We'll see you soon.
[0:37:31] NA: All right, thanks.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:37:33] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the Strip. Bye.
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