Our guest is Women’s Epee National Head Coach Natalie Dostert!
In this episode of First to 15, we're joined by Natalie Dostert, Team USA's women's epee national head coach.
Before taking the lead of Team USA’s women’s epee program in January 2022, Natalie coached our cadet and junior women’s epee teams, trained several U.S. national team members and guided athletes to international medals. The list of fencers she has worked with is too long to name, but just a few are Kelley and Courtney Hurley, Kat Holmes and Francesca Bassa.
She’s been an epee coach at the Alliance Fencing Academy in Houston since 2015. Before that, Natalie was the head epee coach at a fencing club in Bonn, Germany, from 2013 to 2015.
And her own fencing experience is definitely worth mentioning as well. Natalie was a German national team and university champion, holds a German “Coaching ‘A’” license from the German Fencing Federation and earned a Bachelor of Science degree in biology from the University of Bonn.
--
First to 15: The Official Podcast of USA Fencing
Host: Bryan Wendell
Cover art: Manna Creations
Theme music: Brian Sanyshyn
EPISODE 19
[INTRO]
[00:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell, and in this show you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in the sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. So whether you're an Olympian or a Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:00:40] BW: Today's guest is Women's Epee National Head Coach Natalie Dostert. Before taking the lead of Team USA’s Women's Epee program in January 2022, Natalie coached our Cadet and Junior Women's Epee teams, trained several US national team members, and guided athletes to international medals galore. The list of fencers she's worked with, it's really too long to name, but just a few are Kelley and Courtney Hurley, Kat Holmes, Francesca Bassa. We could go on and on.
Natalie has also been an epee coach at the Alliance Fencing Academy in Houston, great club down there since 2015. Before that, she was the head epee coach at a fencing club in Bonn, Germany from 2013 to 2015, and her own fencing experience is definitely worth mentioning. As an athlete, Natalie was a German national team and university champion, holds a German coaching A license from the German Fencing Federation, and earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Biology from the University of Bonn.
So welcome to the podcast, Natalie.
[00:01:36] ND: Hi. Thank you so much for inviting me.
[00:01:38] BW: So let's get started with how you got started in fencing. When and why did you first get involved in this great sport?
[00:01:46] ND: I got pretty much started in 1999 through an after-school program. We had to choose one, and I didn't really like anything else. I didn't know what fencing is, so I tried it out. I pretty much fall in love with it and stayed with it. Yeah. From there on, it became like my whole life. I moved to Bonn to a boarding school especially for fencing. I continued there as coach after my own career before I moved to the US.
[00:02:15] BW: So how do clubs like that in Germany and fencing clubs there differ from those in the United States, especially the great ones like Alliance and many others across the country?
[00:02:27] ND: It's definitely a different structure in Germany because we don't have private clubs. We have all government-sponsored clubs. The other part, which is a huge difference, is the motivation for a fencer because colleges in Germany are free. So there is no recognition from the college for fencing. Pretty much, it's just “the passion and love for the sport,” which keeps you on fencing.
But the other big, big part, which I think I like much more here in the US definitely than it was in Germany and which just keeps kids also around, is the acknowledgement of sport in general. In Germany, it's soccer, and that's about it. But here in the US, I think fencing is growing. Even though people don't – Like not everyone knows about it, but everyone is like really excited to get to know it.
[00:03:22] BW: Yeah, yeah. There's definitely that intrigue there when people hear you're a fencer, right? So you're well-known as an excellent coach. But for those who don't know, what would you say your coaching style is, and kind of how did you develop that style?
[00:03:38] ND: I think the best description is tough love. I give 100%, but I do expect 100% back from my fencers. Then there are pretty much like two different parts of my style. Like there's the technical side and the mental style. My technical style I adapted from like a couple of different people. The base is definitely like my former German coach, Martin [inaudible 00:04:01]. He taught me everything from the beginning, and you see his style and my style like a lot.
But then when I came to the US and I worked with Andrey Geva and Sergey Danilov, I definitely learned from these two like a lot, for example, about Grench grip fencing and the French grip style, which I really love. Then we have Dorian Jimenez at our club in Alliance. I love working with him because like learning from him like footwork games and trickiness, and it's just like a lot of fun every day at Alliance. Like we're always discussing ideas, and we're sharing things we saw in competitions or videos, and we try to keep like developing our style. Especially with him, like I think I have like a really good connection.
[00:04:49] BW: And how about the mental side of the game, which is also really important?
[00:04:53] ND: Yeah. For the mental side, I just believe that a lot of coaching happens outside of the strip, and each fencer has different needs. So I'm really trying my best to find a personalized approach, which helps each fencer to become their best. The only thing is like, overall, that I am not much sugarcoating, so that's why I think the big idea would be like tough love.
[00:05:19] BW: Yeah, totally. Speaking of love, you've talked about the epee specifically with such love. When I've talked to you, it's clear that you have such a passion for that weapon particularly. So you love coaching, but you also just love watching epee fencing. So what is it about epee specifically that just connects with you so much out of the three weapons?
[00:05:42] ND: I really love that we have all the target, like the variety of different target. We have the foot. We have the hand. We have the leg. The other weapons, like not all have this. The other big part I really like about fencing is that we have two different fencing styles with the pistol grip and French grip. I personally really love French grip fencing and the French grip game. So this was definitely like things I prefer in epee. Then to be honest, I don't like right of way. So I like to defend yourself. Not with a rule like with actually like your body or your weapons.
[00:06:22] BW: Totally. Yeah, I mean, I hear that. From a viewer standpoint, it's pretty easy to grasp the concept too, right? So it's very easy, if you're a fan of fencing, to just watch and understand what's happening without having someone explain the rules to you, right?
[00:06:37] ND: Exactly. It might take a second longer until something happens. But the understanding, you get hit, you get hit.
[00:06:44] BW: Right, yeah. What's clearer than that? So, Natalie, you've worked with Olympians, but I also want to talk about people who are just starting in fencing. What's your approach when someone comes into the club, and they're brand new? They're just picking up the weapon for the first time.
[00:07:01] ND: I mean, definitely, the very first thing is we try or I try to make them enjoy fencing. But I think it's like very important to build like a good foundation. So as much as like we want to help them have fun and everything, for me the most fun is when you start winning. So I normally start with like a beginner on like working very strong footwork base, the very like beginnings of like attack, defense.
Then from the like pretty much beginning, I try to teach like creating overreacting, which I think is a big part, especially at Alliance what we try to like focus on. Then over the time, looking for like small things, which like stick out to individualize a fencer and even that smallest like if they should fence pistol grip or French grip later on. Like many beginners, I switch pretty quickly into French grip when I see like certain things sticking out, which just fits much more into French grip fencing, so I don't waste any time and switch them over.
[00:08:09] BW: So you're not trying to put them into the box that you've already established. You're trying to almost create the box that fits them best. Is that it?
[00:08:15] ND: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Even though like I really love French grip fencing, for me, it has to make sense. Like if I see someone like very strong, fencing with the blade all the time, liking to take the blade, I would never take them to a French grip fencer. Besides it becomes a problem and we need to fix something.
But if I got like a very like tall girl, not very like physically strong but liking to counter attack all the time, there's literally everything telling you like she should be a French grip fencer. So I really try to like personalize it. Like I said, also with my coaching style, I believe really every person is an individual fencer, and I cannot just box them into something.
[00:08:58] BW: That's awesome. So the hope is that they'll progress and, like you said, get into a competitive side and start winning because that always feels really good. To a certain point, I imagine a young fencer is ready to make that next jump, which whatever that might be, that could be going to a regional tournament and NAC or even trying to qualify for one of the international traveling teams. How do you know when someone's ready to make that leap?
[00:09:25] ND: I don't really believe in that, like there's a right time or a certain time. My belief definitely is always starting from you don't lose if you learn something. So go out there and lose. You will start losing if you start anyways. In the whole life, you will lose more than you will win in the end. But if you like approach it as like a learning thing, I think this is the best one. Then definitely, like I try to teach my kids to work in like small steps, and I call it like baby victories, especially with beginners. Every touch you score is like a baby victory. From there on, you're creating big victories which are real bouts.
Then, of course, I don't want to like big frustration or anything. So I think the rule kind of is like if you want to have one, as soon as you can win some Des, you can go to the next level. Because if you never can even like when a single DE and you're going to a NAC from regional, I mean, you get eaten alive. So there's, at some point, learning, yes. But also like the confidence and everything has to be there and, again, the fun about it. Like you need to enjoy it.
That's why I think when you can like win some bouts, you don't need to win a competition. You kind of go to the next stage. Then I really try to pay attention like to every time explain like what to expect. Because if someone goes to a NAC just because they won maybe one regional tournament and they’re expecting like to go and win it, this might not happen. So I really try to like guide my fencers through it and motivate them to like learn. We discuss this when they come back and see like baby steps in general, where they improved something, or where we learned something. But we just need to start improving next.
[00:11:11] BW: Because you want to go on with the confidence that you can win a NAC, but at the same time, the understanding that it's not a guarantee. You're going to have
to work for it, right?
[00:11:20] ND: Yes. It takes time.
[00:11:21] BW: It seems like a tricky balance.
[00:11:23] ND: Yes, it is. It is.
[00:11:24] BW: Sure, yeah. So let's hear from Coach Natalie. For people who are listening out there, if you had a magic wand and could correct one thing that you see a lot of epee fencers at your club or just when you're watching fencers from other clubs at a NAC doing wrong, what would that be? What would you correct?
[00:11:43] ND: Oh, my gosh. The footwork positioning or foot positioning. I saw many times like feet and knee placements so wrong, and it kills me because on two points. First of all, it's forcing or like causing injuries, especially when the knees are like turned in and stuff like this. It's just really not healthy.
The other part is it just limits the footwork and creativity. If you get stuck on your legs, if you cannot control your legs because they're like moving in all different directions, yeah, it's a nightmare for me.
[00:12:22] BW: That’s one of the first things you like to –
[00:12:23] ND: I think that answers – Like I'm correcting it a lot. Sometimes, they get annoyed of me, but I don't care.
[00:12:30] BW: You got to keep that tough love going, right?
[00:12:33] ND: Oh, yes. I think that would definitely be like my thing for my magic wand.
[00:12:37] BW: So you talked about how collegiate fencing works in Germany, which is completely different from here in the United States, which brings up a good question. If someone comes to you, and they're 14 or 15 or 16, and they're saying, “Hey, I'd love to try to fence in college,” what's your advice to them about that difficult but potentially rewarding journey?
[00:12:57] ND: Yes. I'm honest to my students. Okay. It like comes back to I'm not sugarcoating. I'm German, so we don't know sugarcoating. The chances to get recruited to a div 1 school are very unlikely at this point because the position is so high already. The thing is just like there are different approaches still. Like we have div 2, div 3 schools. We have club teams. You can try to walk on on a team.
But technically, like you need to start showing results in the age of 15, 16. That's when the college coaches start having an eye out, start slowly like talking to you in the cadet age. Can you do it? Yes, why not? I tell you right away, it is very, very hard. Like I said, it might not be a div 1 school recruitment. You can walk on or try to walk on a div 1 school team, or you go to a like different division. But it will need a lot of dedication and really, really hard work, like you need to be in the gym like every day to catch up. Would I work with you? Absolutely, absolutely. If you're willing to do this, I'll help you my best I can do.
[00:14:08] BW: Yeah. I think that's great advice. Kind of changing gears a bit, I'm really fascinated by just the almost art and science of strip coaching because I've seen it happen where someone – A coach says the right thing during that break, and it can really turn around about. So what's your approach to making the most of those windows of opportunity in strip coaching?
[00:14:31] ND: I mean, I'm trying from outside to just look for like small adjustments or possibilities, which may be like not as clear from the inside on the strip because it's two angles you can see, and I believe that like both angles together create the best outcome. So it's always a conversation which has to happen, in my opinion.
But then, for me, what is really most important in this one-minute break or, in general, on strip coaching is to motivate and to push the confidence and to belief in what is working. Because sometimes, for no reason, this leaves the fencer, and they start doubting their action because maybe it already worked like two, three times, I guess, and it can work like 10 more, if you just – There's no reason yet. There's no indicator something changed, or they just like don't believe in an action they know perfectly fine.
That is, for me, like a really big thing. I think like people who heard me coaching, they heard a lot like the leave or discipline. These are my words I’m saying a lot. But, yeah, like the motivating part is really, really important there, like just to strengthen them one more time, especially in the one-minute break, going back into the bout like, “You got this. Believe in it, right? You will do this. You will be great.”
[00:15:47] BW: It’s interesting to hear you say it's a conversation because I've definitely witnessed other coaches, and this is their style. So I'm not criticizing, but it looks like they're just talking the entire minute and not hearing anything their fencer is saying. But it seems like you prefer to kind of also hear what the fencer is seeing in their masks on the strip.
[00:16:08] ND: I really like to hear real quick like what they are also seeing because, like I said, some things look different when you face your opponent or when I face the bout. So some things are maybe not as obvious for a fencer or even for me about what is happening. Therefore, I think – Definitely, I talk the most part of it. But if a fencer feels like they need to like give me feedback, they normally know that they can tell me. Or I even ask them when I come to the strip like, “What do you think? What is happening in your opinion? Or why is this happening?”
[00:16:38] BW: Yeah, that makes sense. So Natalie, at some point, obviously, you caught the eye of Team USA, and they said this is the best person to lead our Women's Epee National team. So obviously, congrats on that, and we're lucky to have you. There are some really impressive athletes on that team, Kat Holmes, Margherita Guzzi Vincenti, Isis Washington, Hadley Husisian, and many, many more.
Where do you think Team USA Women's Epee is at right now? Then where are you hoping to see that weapon go as we approach Paris 2024 and then even LA 2028?
[00:17:12] ND: Yeah. We definitely – Like you mentioned, we have a super, super strong group of fencers. Right now, we are kind of restructuring the team from the last two, definitely like two Olympic cycles. So therefore, like I'm working with a little bit bigger group like the top cadets, juniors, seniors. Like we're trying to do like mini camps at the NACs. I'm going to the Junior World Cups. I went to one of the Cadet World Cups also to try to like get them into the same way or path, which we want later for the senior team.
I'm taking always like a fifth to the World Cups to like include them and get ready because out of this big group, we would kind of make this team for, like which would try to qualify for Paris and later on, even for LA. I think we are on a pretty good path right now to build a really strong team dynamic, which, in my opinion, is super important. Even like we will have some ups and downs, but this is just like how it goes. This is the way we need to find like small adjustments, and I think we’re a pretty good way there.
I mean, I love the team. I love our Women's Epee group, and it's just really, really great working with them, and I'm super excited to see where this goes.
[00:18:27] BW: Yeah. There are some great athletes and just some great people on the team too, right? The personalities are awesome. Looking at the results for the Women's Epee team event at the last three Olympics, there was fifth in Tokyo, fifth in Rio, and then a bronze medal in London in the team event. So it seems like the team is right there every four years. So what's it going to take to make that jump, I guess, in this case, back onto the metal stand that we saw in 2012?
[00:18:57] ND: I mean, besides definitely skills, since the Olympics is a one-day performance, a one-day event, it kind of – Like you have to have your stars aligned on this day. It’s a very strong mental game. I believe, therefore, that one big thing, which can kind of put the stars in the right alignment, is the team dynamic. If really the team like within like trust each other 100%, I really think they can make magic happen.
That's what I'm trying right now to build, this team trust, the team dynamic. That's why I said I'm doing like camps and like taking like five with me because we don't know in the end like who will be the final team, until very shortly before. So I'm trying to build this whole trust and team dynamic over like a group of six, seven people. So that once we get there, hopefully, everyone is ready and really like trust each other that they will put like all in and –
[00:20:00] BW: That’s so interesting.
[00:20:00] ND: I believe like you can make magic happen.
[00:20:03] BW: Yeah. I think it's interesting. You talk about the team dynamic because, ultimately, it's a team competition and that the scores are all added up, obviously. But there's only one person out there. So why is it so important to have that team dynamic, even though it's every mini bout, every round is one person against another, and the other three or four athletes are there with their masks off on the side?
[00:20:29] ND: It's because like we're building on top of each other. So if you are maybe out there on your own, but you maybe have some struggle, like everyone struggles at some point, sometimes, if you know like your teammates, when you turn around, they won't be disappointed. They will just stay there, they will support you, and they will know like, “We got you. We will make up for you.” This really helps you sometimes to get through like rough phases.
Then the next thing is we're doing this as a team effort. Like maybe we lost like two, three points in this one bout. But like the next two bouts, we're getting one point back at a time because together, we got this and no one is blaming each other. Or we know like one person like lost a bout or lost some points. It wasn't because they didn't put everything in because we trust these people. We trust all the people who go up there on the strip to always put 100% in for the team, who would never like let the team down. We know that it’s human beings, right? Sometimes, it doesn't work. Okay. Sometimes, you're not perfect.
I think that the worst thing really just could happen in a team is you're losing a point or a bout. Or something goes wrong, and you turn around, and the whole like bench is just rolling their eyes, being disappointed, and just – Yeah. That's like the worst thing. So that is really the anti-magic.
[00:21:55] BW: I think that's awesome, and I say you've got the passion too. When you're sitting there, I can hear you screaming with joy when there's a – Every touch score. So you're really like living and dying by each moment in a bout, which is so cool to see, in my opinion.
[00:22:11] ND: It's a lot of fun.
[00:22:13] BW: Yeah. It is fun, and that's why I love team events. So part of the reason for the optimism surrounding Women's Epee in Team USA is the pipeline that you talked about earlier. It's the juniors, even the cadets. So as we're recording this, we just saw Michaela Joyce win gold at Junior Women's World Cup, and Team USA has the reigning Junior Women's Epee World Champion, Hadley Husisian. So what does that pipeline in the success of these younger athletes – What kind of message does that send to you about the future of this program?
[00:22:48] ND: I mean, we really have an insane strong group of cadet and junior fencers. I actually checked. Since the pandemic, we won every single individual event in Cadet and Junior Woman's Epee we attended, besides Cadet World Championships, which shows the strength of this team. On top of that, we usually have like at least two or more girls in the top eight.
This also just shows that super strong and like great, great work from the clubs and the coaches in the US all over the US because they're coming from all over the places. If we can keep these girls on the international level through college, I believe we have a really, really bright future, and especially it will look very good for LA ‘28.
[00:23:36] BW: That's awesome. So finally, what keeps you coming back and putting on that coaching mask again and again? Like why are you still so passionate?
[00:23:47] ND: I think I would say like I really just love to see things clicking. Either in a lesson or on the strip, in a competition, when a fencer gets back to me and just [inaudible 00:23:59], “Oh, my gosh. This actually worked on – It like worked,” that’s just like literally the best feeling, even though I’m like, “Yeah, of course.” It's just like awesome. I really, really love this.
I also like love now like with all the travel coming back to the Club and like bringing just like new ideas I saw on the junior or senior circuit or like some developments, and share them with my students. On top, I just feel like as a coach, I am a role model to my fencers and especially to young girls. I have to say I'm in a sports world dominated by men, I want my young – Like especially female fencers, just to see that they can do and earn and achieve whatever they put in their mind. I think that's like super, super important.
[00:24:51] BW: Absolutely. Inspiring words and that's a great place to leave it. Thank you so much to Coach Natalie for being our guest, and we'll be cheering on you in the Women's Epee team all season and beyond. So thank you so much.
[00:25:03] ND: Thank you, Bryan.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[00:25:05] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or a review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the strip. Bye.
[END]