Our guest is Megumi Oishi, a student-athlete at Northwestern University, founder of The Athlete Narrative, and an advocate for body positivity in fencing and beyond.
In this episode of First to 15, we're joined by Megumi Oishi, a student-athlete at Northwestern University, founder of The Athlete Narrative, and an advocate for body positivity in fencing and beyond.
Megumi has been fencing for 10 years, is a 16-time national medalist, a one-time international medalist, and was one of just 24 fencers who qualified for the NCAA Championships in women’s saber where she became an All-American.
She's the Saber Newcomer of the Year awardee from the U.S. Fencing Coaches Association and her team’s MVP with the most regular-season wins.
On top of all this, she's making waves through her research and advocacy work around athlete body negativity.
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First to 15: The Official Podcast of USA Fencing
Host: Bryan Wendell
Cover art: Manna Creations
Theme music: Brian Sanyshyn
EPISODE 29
[INTRO]
[00:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell, and in this show you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in the sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. So, whether you're an Olympian or a Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:00:39] BW: Today's guest is Megumi Oishi, a student athlete at Northwestern University, founder of The Athlete Narrative and an advocate for body positivity in fencing and beyond. Megumi has been fencing for 10 years, is a 16-time national medalist, a onetime international medalist, and was one of just 24 fencers who qualified for the NCAA championships in women's saber this year, where she became an All American. She's also the Saber Newcomer of the Year. That’s an award from the US fencing Coaches Association, and was her team's MVP with the most regular season wins. On top of all this, she's making waves through her research and advocacy work around athlete body positivity. Welcome to the podcast, Megumi.
[00:01:21] MO: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
[00:01:24] BW: All right, let's start at the beginning. Can you share how your journey and fencing first started?
[00:01:30] MO: Yes. I'll be so honest. I was not the best athlete as a kid. My mom honestly just wanted to get me into a sport, any sport. Until that point, I've been doing things like theater camps, singing camps. I was not an athlete at all. We tried everything. We tried out baseball. We tried out volleyball, soccer, and I was no good at any of those. Finally, she just threw up her hands and said, “What about fencing?” She just threw out the most random sport she could think of, I was like, “Okay, sure. We can try that.” I tried out a fencing summer camp, and I absolutely fell in love with it. I think the whole mental aspect of it, the physical chess, having to think while you're moving is so unique and so cool. That’s what appealed to nine-year-old me, and I've been doing it for 10 years now. I've loved it so far.
[00:02:36] BW: That's crazy. It was a summer camp that was your first exposure and not a lesson. You were ready to jump in with both feet, and obviously, it worked out pretty well.
[00:02:45] MO: Yes. I don't know. I saw it in the Olympics and I guess, in a few books, but otherwise, I'd never heard of it. I guess I was willing to try something totally new.
[00:02:54] BW: Yes, seriously. Obviously, it's paid off and your career has been successful so far and you're just getting started in many respects. We're recording this at the end of your first season, your freshman season at Northwestern, where you became an All American, like we said, Saber Newcomer of the Year. Ow do you reflect back on such a successful season? What are you most proud of?
[00:03:18] MO: I think what I'm most proud of is, obviously, my results. I'm very happy with them. I'm proud of my accomplishments so far. But I think the thing that I'm most proud of is being able to come here and be cohesive with my team. I think the biggest anxiety that I had coming into Northwestern was, am I going to be able to fit in with a team of such talented division one athletes. Up until this point, high school fencing, and before that, I think it's pretty much individual, even though there is a lot of club fencing, and you still have this team culture around you. But here, it's really about celebrating everybody's accomplishment, and fencing with your teammates every single day, and you all are working together.
That was my biggest thing that I did, in my first tournament. I was thinking, “Am I going to be able to support my teammates? Are they going to support me?” They totally have and I have developed such an amazing relationship with them. I would not replace it for anything of the world. I think that's what I'm most proud of this season.
[00:04:26] BW: Really, in fencing, everybody in collegiate fencing, everybody's got to step up right from the start. I'm thinking of some other sports where perhaps a first-year athlete might be on the bench, and they might have some minutes so to speak later in the game or in less important games. But you were called on right from the start. Was there pressure in that or some relief in the fact that you are getting to do what you love to do?
[00:04:51] MO: I think there definitely was relief. I so enjoy fencing now, and I think the biggest pressure was the that in college fencing, it's bouts of three to – we divide it as a team, and we go to nine, right? I think, the biggest pressure was my coach, Dennis, he put me up as the first fencer in that bout of nine. This was my first tournament, and I was thinking, “Oh, gosh, I’m not going to be able to set the tone for this”, because the first fencer is the one – if they win, it's really good. Even if they lose, they have to put up a good fight, and amp up the energy for the rest of the team. I think, I really established that position of first fencer and I have been fencing in that position for basically the entire season. I think, I got past that pressure pretty well, but it's a pressure that I really enjoy.
[00:05:51] BW: Yes. We think about the order. I think about that a lot, the order in team events at the collegiate level, and also at USA fencing tournaments, international tournaments. The anchor is an important role, but also that first person really does set the tone. If you’re having an off day, you can really put the team in a tough position. But the opposite is true, too, right? You have the ability to get out there and start things off nicely. That's an interesting dynamic.
I want to talk about your high school experience in Oregon. You won the Absolute Fencing Gear scholarship contest for your essay, which was about athlete body negativity, positivity, however you want to phrase it. You start the essay by talking about and I'm going to quote from it, “Your legs like tree trunks and covered with spot marks and bruises from fencing.” You said, in your words that you thought your legs were short, and stocky, and stubby. Then, you took a course in high school that helped you reframe how you see your body. Can you explain for people who maybe haven't had a chance to read your essay, which we will link in the show notes here. Can you tell us what you meant by that?
[00:06:59] MO: Sure. I, like you said, I was very insecure in high school about my body because of the way it looks because of sports. I did a lot of lifting. I did a lot of fencing, obviously. With that, my body became more muscular. My legs became a little bit bigger, and my arms became a little bit bigger. My high school friends, they were people that generally avoided sports. Whenever they saw me in non-athletic gear, at school, they would say things like, “Oh, Megumi, your legs have gotten so big, you look like a man.” Or, “Oh, your shoulders look so bulky in tank tops, and things like that.” That really gets to someone, especially somebody who is going through puberty and all the inherent insecurities that come with just growing up.
I was very insecure about all of this until I got into IB Bio, which I was so surprised about. I went to IB Bio, and we were taking a class on anatomy. The teacher was showing us pictures of animal bones, and bone structure. She was telling us, “Hey, look at all these animals, they have different body types and bone types. But that's okay, because all their bodies are built to serve their own special functions, so the phrase, structure fits function. That really stuck with me, because my body is now built to be able to fence and do the thing that I really love. Even if my body becomes bigger, as a result, it still means that I can do something super cool, like sword fighting. I think that's how I got past that huge insecurity, surprisingly, from IB Bio, but it stuck with me to this day.
[00:08:53] BW: Yes, having that confidence is certainly helpful. I love the idea that you look how you should look as a fencer, right? We're going to get into a little bit later, the fact that there is no one look for what a fencer should look like. But first, before we get off of the essay, we also, thanks to your gracious approval, we published it in American Fencing Magazine. So, it reached even more people than it would have otherwise. Have you gotten any response from people or has anybody seen that essay in the magazine?
[00:09:25] MO: Yes, they have. Actually, there were girls at my club who read the magazine and a few other people in the fencing community did too, apparently. But these girls, I think they were around 12, 13, 14. I was at the club one day, and they came up to me as a group and they said, “Thank you so much for publishing this. I think so many people need to hear more about this.” They were telling me that they had also experienced these kinds of body negativity from their peers and just people around them.
First of all, I found that it’s so unfortunate that girls that young, athletes that young, were experiencing body negativity already. But at the same time, I was so happy that I could be a positive influence on them and they could use my experience to benefit themselves and feel better about their bodies. Hopefully, the phrase, structure fits function, is going to stick with them as much as it stuck with me. That was a very impactful and important moment in my life.
[00:10:37] BW: Yes, that's great. It occurs to me that not every 12, 13, 14-year-old is going to have an IB Bio class where they have that eye-opening experience, and not all of them are going to read your essay where they're like, “Oh, I never saw it that way.” Do you have advice for those who are still wondering if their body looks the way it should?
[00:10:57] MO: Yes, for sure. I think the biggest problem with our current society and body image is things like social media. I think in social media, there's so much about how somebody should look in terms of skinniness, in terms of height, in terms of their face, and everything. Just knowing that those things are – I think they’re bogus. I think beauty is entirely subjective. There's not one set standard of how beauty should look.
I think in terms of how young athletes can reassure themselves that their body is built the way that it should be, I think it's difficult but it's important to be proactive and seeking out these very important and influential mentors who are actually in the sport. I think, when we look on social media, and we see people who are completely detached from sports, and their body serves a different function, not necessarily better or worse, but a different function. I think what younger athletes maybe should try to do is find people and role models in the sport, and see what they're saying about body image and positivity and things like that. Because that is much more applicable to their lifestyle, rather than somebody who is not in sports.
[00:12:25] BW: Yeah, totally. Speaking of fencing, you know, when I look around a tournament, I see athletes of all shapes and sizes, even on the medal stand, which is proof that there is no one way to look as a fencer. “Well, you got to look like this, if you're going to win a medal.” Well, you look at the top eight at any tournament, and it's the full gamut. How do we remind people that there's no ideal fencing shape that your body is going to look the way it looks based on how you train it? It all goes back to what you're saying in your essay, but how do we get that message out there?
[00:13:00] MO: I think that for the most part, like you said, it is something that can be recognized by somebody who is in the sport, saying, “Oh, these people, everybody has a different body type and it's not just one monolithic body type in sport.” But I think things like having conversations like this where we say, “Celebrate everybody type in the sport.” I think that in fencing, it's really cool that there's a choice in weapon. I think that's a really big part of that, It's not just one weapon that you can go into if you don't think your body type fits that certain weapon or anything like that. I think it’s really cool that we do have a choice in which weapon we want to specialize in.
In terms of – I think we can definitely elevate conversations in that in the sport. I think what's also really cool is that I came to North Western, and I've been training in the training room every morning, with different sports teams. I train with volleyball, I train with field hockey, soccer. What I've observed is that those teams usually have a pretty standard body type. They're all pretty much the same height, same body type, all that. But fencing, I think it's totally different, and I think that was really impactful to see and it was very empowering to see because in fencing, like you say, not everybody's one singular body type, but we can all be at this division one level. I think it's really important to recognize and acknowledge all of our strengths in different ways.
[00:14:44] BW: Yes, you're right. It really goes back to the, again not to harp on it, but what you've said in your essay about the structure matching the function. When you think about volleyball, since you brought that up, there is a certain function that you have to fulfill which is, being tall and being able to jump to block and spike and everything. So, that makes sense. But in fencing, what I love about fencing is that there's so many different ways that you can win, right? There's not an ideal shape that is going to guarantee you those 15 touches in a traditional bout.
Let's talk about coaches, because on this podcast, we've talked to some athletes and former division one athletes who have said, they actually have had coaches who have told them, “Hey, you don't look the way – you need to lose some weight or whatever.” When I hear that, it's terrible. I'm wondering what role coaches play in adapting their coaching to what their fencer looks like, instead of asking their fencers to change who they are and how they look to adapt their vision or their style.
[00:15:53] MO: Definitely. So, I think I haven't had a coach tell me, “You have to lose weight.” But I have had people very close to me in the sport, mentors very close to me in the sport, tell me certain things about my clothes, and the way I look in clothes. Who has lost weight, who has gained weight, things like that, around me. To be very honest, it's a very negatively impactful thing on an athlete's mental health. Because in a sport, I think, in a very pragmatic sense, you're here in a space where you're excited to be here, and you choose to be here. I assume that it's something that you love doing. And in that safe space, having something like that being said to you by somebody who's very close to you, as a mentor, I think that's horribly negative to an athlete's mental health.
So, I think coaches play a bigger role than they believe. I think there's a big culture of, “Oh, well, I'm the coach. I can say whatever I want. But that's actually not true. Mental health is just as important as physical health, especially with body image, I think what has to be put out there is for coaches, and basically everybody to understand, is that mental problems with body image, such as eating disorders, anorexia, things like that, those impacts the physical body and the physical performance just as much as it affects mental health.
One way or another, it is going to show up in the athlete’s performance if it's not addressed or treated with proper care. That connection has to be made with coaching and, honestly, just treatment in the sport knowing that mental health matters just as much as physical health because it can have real-life observable repercussions in the sport.
[00:17:52] BW: Yes, that's really well said. I imagine some of that passion that's coming out in your answers is what inspired you to start The Athlete Narrative. I'd love for you to tell us what that is and the genesis behind it.
[00:18:07] MO: For sure. So, unfortunately, I think that my inspiration to start The Athlete Narrative came from my own personal experiences in the sport. I think that came in three aspects. The first, I think, I've already mentioned it. My high school friends. They avoided sports and they would see my body as an athlete and say very derisive comments about that. Then second, I mentioned it a little bit too, but mentors and coaches. There was a lot of talk about how my body looked in certain clothes, and who had lost and gained weight around me. That was just very negative and horrible to hear.
Third, I think this is the biggest thing that I personally experienced, that made me want to start The Athlete Narrative. I had an athlete peer who is very close to me in my sport. Up until a certain point, we were at similar physical and results wise, we were at the same level. Then, at a certain point, I started to pull away from her a little bit. I started to improve my results a little bit. She started to say really derisive comments about my body like, “Megumi, her legs are too big. Tou look like a man.” Or, “Your chest is too small.” Or, “You've really gained acne on your face.” All this to say that I didn't realize at the time that it could be jealousy or something else that wasn't me personally that was affecting these comments. But at the time, I really didn't realize that.
But as time went on, I realized that this was a paradigm that has to be stopped. It was something that affected my personal life so immensely and started to creep into my athletic performances as well, as I started to doubt my own body and the way it looked, and maybe it's not – maybe I should be concerned about the structure rather than the function of it. I think, I'm really honestly proud of myself for realizing that this is a problem and it's not just affecting me, it's probably affecting a lot of people out there.
Actually, it's really funny. So, when I started The Athlete Narrative on social media, because that's how that started. That girl, my athlete peers, she reached out to me, and she said, “Why did you start this?” I said, “It was because of you.” All this to say that that's how I realized that there are a lot of facets of body negativity in sports and that's what makes it so harmful and scary is that it can come from non-athlete peers. It can come from coaches. It can come from athlete peers, and it can come from social media, and things like that, and so many other aspects in someone's life. So, I think that's something that we absolutely need to address and combat in the years to come.
[00:21:05] BW: Other than your peer who asked why you started it, what has been the response to being so bravely willing to put yourself out there as a voice and an advocate for this.
[00:21:16] MO: It's mostly been positive. Like I said, some people have come up to me at tournaments and said, “Hey, I read your article. It's amazing and it really had an impact on me. So, thank you so much.” Honestly, that is such a gratifying thing to hear, and really makes me want to keep going with my work, because I realized that it is a problem that is prevalent in our sport, and it needs to be kept talking about.
But I think the biggest obstacle that I faced in extending my research and everything was response from mentors were closest to me. When I started The Athlete Narrative, I was also simultaneously reaching out to colleges and talking about recruitment. I had a mentor in my sport, who was telling me how to keep my records spick and span so that I looked the most appealing to coaches at top universities.
One day, my mentor pulled me aside, and they said, “Hey, I really think you should stop doing this work”. I was confused, and I said, “Why?” They said, “Because colleges aren't going to want somebody who is so outspoken about this stuff. They're not going to want somebody who is obnoxious about these issues.” I'll be honest, I was affected by that, because I was in my junior year, I was looking for colleges to recruit me. Obviously, I wanted to go to a top college.
I stopped doing my work for about six months. But during that time, I started to reflect, and I realized why these very inimical comments were absolute bogus. For one pragmatic reason, why would I want to go to a school whose coaches or administration don't fully support the work that I'm doing, this advocacy work for myself and my fellow athletes? On a larger scale, I realized that it's not just about me going to the college that I want to go to. I definitely think that this is a bigger issue, a bigger issue that affects a lot of athletes out there. It's a bigger issue than me not being able to go to the college that I want. This is much bigger work than that.
I think that's ultimately what pushed me to keep going and I received a lot of gratitude from my athlete peers for continuing that work. And thinking back to that interaction with my mentor, I'm at Northwestern, and this is my dream school, and the coaches, they have an overwhelming amount of support, just ready to give to me. I would say that all things considered, everything turned out totally fine, and I'm where I want to be, and I'm doing the work that I want to do. So, I'm very happy that I was able to push past that, that obstacle in my research.
[00:24:24] BW: Yes, totally. We're happy as well that you're able to share that with us. It is unfortunate because I keep hoping that we will move past that as a society thinking that athletes somehow should just be athletes and can't be advocates as well. Going all the way back to that now famous LeBron James interviews, the shut up and dribble comments and it's like, how are we not past that, that the understanding that you're a well-rounded individual who has opinions and beliefs. I love what you said that if a school thinks that's a negative, that you're outspoken on important issues, then they don't tell – tell them that they can just take you off their list, right? That kind of thing. That's how I feel about it.
It's great to hear that Northwestern has been so accommodating to you. I'm wondering like what's next in your research? Because obviously this issue isn't going away and where are you kind of looking to expand and take your research next?
[00:25:26] MO: I think Northwestern is such a great place to start and keep going with this research. Because obviously, there are a lot of talented professors and a lot of resources that I can utilize here. Currently, I'm looking through past research articles that I did not really know how to access in high school. My research skills are definitely improving. I think, right now, there's three things that I want to expand on in current research.
The first thing that I realized in doing my research was that current research is rather outdated. Everything's usually from the eighties or the nineties, early 2000s. I think the reason for this is because that's when people started to realize that eating disorders and body image were really big issues that we needed to talk about in society. As that started to proliferate, so did this conversation about athletes and how they perceive their own bodies. But that research, this is leading into my second point, hasn't really been accommodated for modern applications. Like I mentioned, there's a lot of modern factors that count into body image specifically, in athletes as well, I think. That would be things like social media and cyber bullying.
But there are not a lot of articles or studies done in seeing how those modern types of media work to either worsen this – perpetuate this idea of body negativity and athletes, there's no studies done of that. So, I would love to expand on that. I think, the third thing that I want to expand on is thinking about body image in tandem with gender. When we think of gender, I think we generally think about – we immediately think of women and LGBTQ plus bodies. But what I want to research and put out there is that it's not just about a certain marginalized group. It actually affects everyone. I've been reading articles about how it's a problem in both, for example, female distance runners just as much as it is a problem in male bodybuilders and weightlifters and people like that.
All that to say that there is a lot of work that still needs to be done in terms of expanding on current research, making it more modern, and talking about it in tandem with gender, which I think is a really big topic, especially in our society today.
[00:28:13] BW: You could expand it beyond fencing as well, like you said, because it's certainly not unique to this sport. Although this sport does have some unique challenges/opportunities to it.
Lastly, we have a lot of parents who listen to this podcast as well, and parents of either current or future college athletes. Do they play a role in supporting their fencer and their own journey with accepting and understanding how their body should look?
[00:28:47] MO: Absolutely. I think that, like I mentioned, there are a lot of facets of body, both negativity and positivity in an athlete's life. I definitely think that parents and family are also a huge factor in either improving or perhaps decreasing an athlete's mental health. It's definitely a double sided, a double-edged sword in that respect.
I think one thing that parents absolutely can keep in mind is that while sports can benefit an athlete and make them a much happier and well-rounded person, it can come with its risks and understanding those risks.
For example, I have been reading a lot about what is called the female athlete triad. In essence, that is disordered eating because of something that's going on in the sport. That usually happens in distance runners who are told that they're not fit enough or they're not skinny enough. So, that disordered eating leads to a disrupted menstrual cycle in female athletes. Then, that disrupted menstrual cycle, it decreases estrogen, and estrogen levels they affect bone structure and bone development. That creates stress fractures or fissures or breakage.
So, I think all that to say that it's really important for parents to realize that eating and taking care of your child's mental health, and that aspect is really important to not only their performances in the sport, but how they enjoy the sport. If we take that example, I think it's really important for parents to realize that athletes can have these mental struggles, and being able to communicate to those kids saying, “Hey, I acknowledged that this can be a problem for you. But there are ways that we can help and there are ways that these mindsets can really affect your sport and your performance and your enjoyment of them. So, let us have a conversation about that.” I think that's also something that can be improved on in sports, is the conversations between parents and their athletes on body image, mental health. As long as the athletes are aware that their parents are there for them, and not just there to celebrate their results, but also there to help them and guide them on their journeys, I think that's really important for parents and everybody to understand.
[00:31:28] BW: I wonder how a parent would even start that conversation. How do you break the ice there for a topic that may not just be free flowing in every family?
[00:31:38] MO: Absolutely, that is difficult to take into account, relationships between parents and their kids. I think that's a whole another aspect of psychology and connection. But I think just as long as the athlete is comfortable, I think, starting these conversations of maybe being like, “Hey, I read an article or I heard this on the news”, or something like that, just owning a conversation and putting it out there that they have this recognition of this issue. Because I think something that I've observed in the sport myself is that a lot of athletes feel as though their parents aren't – they don't understand or they would never understand. But just letting your child know that you do understand these are problems, and not necessarily saying like, “Oh, you can reach out to me anytime you want.” But just tacitly implying that you understand that it is a problem, is definitely a way to get the conversation started, I think in any household with any relationship with kids.
[00:32:45] BW: And just that you're ready to listen for when they want to talk. That's really smart, because the idea of, “Hey, I saw this article”, also implies that the parent cares enough to do some research into this, rather than just saying, “So, what do you think about your body?” No one wants to start a conversation that way.
Well, this has been super fascinating and I think your message is going to impact a lot of people, so I really appreciate you sharing it today, Megumi, and I just wish you the best of luck at Northwestern, and your fencing career, and with your research and everything. I just really appreciate your time.
[00:33:21] MO: Yeah, thank you so much for talking to me. This has been wonderful.
[00:33:24] BW: Thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[00:33:26] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the Strip. Bye.
[END]