Our guest is Mary Sola Spohn, the owner of Swordplay LA, a USA Fencing member club in Burbank, California. In addition to training fencers of all ages and experience levels, Swordplay offers lessons in onscreen/onstage weapons combat and hand-to-hand combat training.
With more than two decades of fencing experience, Mary Sola Spohn has earned multiple national medals and an NCAA Division I fencing scholarship to Northwestern University. Her journey extends beyond the strip, as she's made a significant mark in the world of stunt acting and fight choreography.
Mary's expertise in on-screen swords and fencing, paired with her knowledge in various martial arts, including boxing and Filipino Martial Arts, has made her a sought-after trainer for A-List celebrities, Academy Award winners, Olympic athletes, and young stars.
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:02] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host Bryan Wendell. In this show, you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in this sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community, and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. Whether you're an Olympian, or Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:40] BW: Today, we're diving into an exciting intersection of fencing and the silver screen with a very special guest, Mary Sola Spohn, the owner of Swordplay LA, which is a USA Fencing Member Club in Burbank, California. With more than two decades of fencing experience, Mary has earned multiple national medals and an NCAA Division I fencing scholarship to Northwestern University.
Her journey extends beyond the strip, and she's made a significant mark in the world of stunt acting and fight choreography. Mary's expertise in on-screen swords and fencing, along with her knowledge in various martial arts, has made her a sought-after trainer for A-list celebrities, Academy Award winners, Olympic athletes, Olympic hopefuls, and young stars. Here to discuss how the art of fencing translates into the art of storytelling on the screen, we've got Mary Sola Spohn. Thanks for joining us.
Mary, I've heard from a lot of fencers that it was a fencing scene in a TV show, or a movie that got them interested in sports. Was that your origin story, or how did you get involved in fencing to begin with?
[0:01:38] MSS: Yeah. I started fencing when I was about five, or six-years-old. My origin story was Hook and Peter Pan. That was what got me started, particularly the sword fight with Robin Williams and Dustin Hoffman, I believe, and Hook. Still today, one of my favorites.
[0:02:02] BW: Yeah, it's a classic scene. Obviously, it's one thing to see a scene and emulate it in your house with some toys, but what made you want to go out and actually try fencing, and then take it to the next step, actually realize that you're good enough to compete as well?
[0:02:19] MSS: I mean, I started so young that I think my parents were, saw how excited I was about sword fighting and seeing it in movies. For them, I think they thought, “Well, there's got to be a equivalent to this, some sort of activity that we could put her in that she would enjoy.” That's when I started. It was the first couple of years when I was that young, it was just something just fun and interesting. Did it once or twice a week at sword play, actually, that's full circle. Then from there, I decided when I was a little bit older, I was eight or nine was when I started competing, and was getting a little bit of traction there as well. I enjoyed it, so I stuck with it.
[0:03:12] BW: When did the Hollywood element of it come in? Would that have been after college, or were you already, I guess, dabbling in that intersection even before Northwestern?
[0:03:26] MSS: Yeah. That started after college. At Northwestern, I studied radio television and film. I wanted to work in film. I knew that. I always had an affinity for film and the entertainment industry. Originally, I had wanted to work in post-production, sound design, and I didn't. For me, that didn't – it just ended up not being the right fit. When I came back to Los Angeles, I was teaching fencing to kids. Then, the previous owner of Swordplay, Tim Weske, he told me, “So, there's a commercial audition. They're looking for high-level fencers. Would you go to the audition and are you available?”
I said, “Yeah. I'd never done anything like that.” But I was like, “Yeah, sure. I'll go.” I ended up booking the job, actually. Then after that, I was like, oh, this is – it was a really fun day, and it was super exciting. It was for actually, the 2016 Olympics.
[0:04:34] BW: Oh, cool.
[0:04:35] MSS: Yeah. I actually did the commercial with Lindsay Bond. It was a Reese's Peanut Butter Cups commercial, where she was trying different Olympic sports, and one of them was fencing.
[0:04:45] BW: That’s cool.
[0:04:45] MSS: Yeah. From there I had – I got headshots, and then started doing some – taking acting classes. Then a lot of the jobs that I was booking were fencing on camera jobs. It just kept spiraling from there, just training in different martial arts, and then learning fight choreography. That was how I made that transition.
[0:05:09] BW: That's crazy. That's such a niche, like fencing on camera jobs. I wonder how many even exist. It makes sense to expand your repertoire into other martial arts, like you said.
[0:05:20] MSS: Yeah. Yeah.
[0:05:22] BW: Nowadays, looking back, when you see a fencing scene dramatized for the screen, especially, I'm talking about a project you didn't work on at all, are you ever pointing things out like, “Okay, that's not fencing. That would be a card,” things like that? Are you ever saying – does it irk you at all?
[0:05:39] MSS: Totally. No, not really. I think, for me, I think that the most important question always is, is it entertaining? That's it. Then, somewhere following that is, is it realistic? Most of the time, it's not. Real fencing, it doesn't play a certain way on camera, just because it's so small and it's so detailed. Especially if you're trying to tell a story, or have different points of character arc, those things really need to influence the choreography. It isn't always as simple as, okay, we're just going to fence in front of the camera. 99% of the time, that doesn't work.
[0:06:29] BW: Yeah. Let's be honest, these directors don't want to see people in masks the whole time anyway, too, right? Obviously, what you're doing is safe, but the depiction of fencing, maybe we're not always wearing the right safety equipment, and when it's on TV, or in a movie, I would imagine.
[0:06:46] MSS: Yeah. Yes, yes, exactly.
[0:06:49] BW: At some point, you realized that you have a talent, not just for fencing, but also for teaching other people how to fight on screen, in fencing, in other ways. How did you start booking those types of jobs to the point that it became a career for you?
[0:07:06] MSS: I mean, it started with, I had worked a couple different, again, it was, a lot of my focus was in swords and weapons combat. When I started teaching fencing again, a little later after that, I had started teaching fight choreography as well. At that point, there was a lot of people coming to sword play that I was being connected with, or meeting. Those people were then reaching out to me later on saying, “Hey, I booked this gig. This is the scene that they want me to do. I would love to do some training. Some, either movement training, or weapons training with you.”
Then at that point, that's how everything started to blend together. Teaching really gave me a lot of knowledge. It's also training for me every time I'm teaching. Even if I'm teaching fundamental stuff, it's going over the basics is super important. I learned a lot just through teaching. The ability to also just teach things quickly paid off really well in the entertainment industry, just because everything's always on a timeline. You only have so much time to get things done, or train someone to a certain level.
The same way that you would approach it from an athletic standpoint, it's like, okay, how do we get this person from this point to this point with four, or five weeks? Picking what's important, what do we train? What are they already naturally good at, and how do we make them better, and not only better, but keep them safe and have them feeling empowered on screen?
[0:08:56] BW: Mary, I'm completely ignorant to the world of Hollywood and the industry. How does this begin? Like, an actor comes to you and says, “I booked this role, and there's a fight scene,” or a director contacts you and says, “We want to make this look realistic, so we need you to – you've got two weeks to train up one of our performers, one of our actors.” Or, how does that happen?
[0:09:20] MSS: It can happen a couple different ways. It can happen where the actor does come to me directly, and ask, especially if they've worked with me before. Maybe they recommended me, or this was before even pre-production, or anything like that, they just want to fine-tune skills, or feel just a little bit more empowered, go over some fundamentals before they go into the training. That's one way that could happen.
Another way is that I've had stunt coordinators reach out to me directly, and then give me a breakdown of what the project is, what they're looking for, and if I can do it, basically. So, that. It can happen a multitude of different ways. It also depends on if it's TV, or if it's film, because they all move on different timelines, depending on what the budget is, depending on just what the turnaround time is of when they're planning on filming as well.
[0:10:16] BW: Do you have a favorite example that you can share? I don't know how much of this is you're allowed to talk about, or do you have someone that you've worked with, or a project that you've worked on that you're especially proud of? If so, we could maybe break down the process there, because I'm super fascinated by that.
[0:10:34] MSS: Sure. Most of my stuff is NDA.
[0:10:37] BW: Okay, sure.
[0:10:38] MSS: But since you guys – I saw that you guys already did interview Lulu Wilson, and –
[0:10:43] BW: Yes.
[0:10:44] MSS: Yeah. She's a fencer as well. She's a great example of a project that I did recently. That was fun for me, because I also just coach her in sport fencing, so it was fun for me to also work with her in a creative space.
[0:11:00] BW: Yeah. I imagine, there's quite an adjustment between like, here's the best way to get to 15 touches on the strip, versus here's what's going to look the most fun and exciting in the camera, right?
[0:11:11] MSS: Right. With her, she had a couple of scenes in her film, The Wrath of Becky, that came out over the summer that were some weapons and movement-based stuff. She had some particular – she came to me with some particular goals of things that she wanted to be able to do as much of it as she could before the stunt double stepped in. Knowing already what her athletic and movement base was, from there, we just built our training sessions around, okay, we need to start working with this particular weapon, or how would this character, like, how would she move with a knife, or with a crossbow. Those are some of the stuff they used in the film. We worked on that, collaborated on that together.
Then also, just seeing what naturally felt good for her, too. I think that's always a very important part. As a trainer and as a coach, is always saying what is working naturally for that person, and then leaning into that as well. Because I think, it also has to be fun for them, too. You'll get the best outcome if they're also having fun and engaged and also feeling challenged at the same time.
[0:12:33] BW: Yeah. That's true whether they're a student paying for lessons, or if they're being paid for a job, and this is part of it, right? I would imagine.
[0:12:41] MSS: Right, right, exactly.
[0:12:42] BW: That's really interesting. When it comes to choreographing a scene, how much is on the page, and how much is from your imagination and experience with what's going to look good?
[0:12:53] MSS: Yeah. It depends on really how it's written. Sometimes, things can be very vague. It can just say, they fight. It's like, okay, that could mean all – that could look all different types of ways, right? Sometimes there's a lot of space to get really creative with choreography. Sometimes with the training elements, too, because sometimes even in the training process, when you're just training them in specific weapons, or sword combat, you might record little clips. Then I've found later on that some of those little clips make it into the choreography, which make it into the movie. I'm like, “Oh, that's nice. That was cool to see that they really liked that.” Yes.
[0:13:35] BW: I love that. Obviously, you're doing a lot of work there at your club. Are you also working on the set, on location as well, or is it out of your hands at that point?
[0:13:47] MSS: It depends. Most of my work really is in pre-production side of things. We've been with SAG after on strike for the past several months. It's been just really me just focusing on in studio stuff. Yes, that is where typically when things are up and moving, that my focus is in the pre-production area.
[0:14:12] BW: Without breaking any NDAs, are there ever times when a student at the club, let's say, a Y10, Y12 fencer might come in, and at the same time that you're working with an actor who they might recognize, is there ever any of that type of overlap?
[0:14:27] MSS: No. Not really. We all try to respect everyone's boundaries and space.
[0:14:33] BW: I got you.
[0:14:33] MSS: Stuff like that.
[0:14:34] BW: Sure, sure.
[0:14:36] MSS: I have done some stuff with different YouTube channels. I did something with the Try Guys recently. A lot of the students watched them and then they saw me doing a fight scene with the Try Guys. Stuff like that happens, where they'll see us on YouTube, or some of those other content creator’s platforms.
[0:15:00] BW: Yeah. I mean, for a lot of our younger listeners, this podcast and younger fencers, those are the celebrities, right?
[0:15:07] MSS: Right. Exactly. Yeah.
[0:15:09] BW: That's really cool. As you've watched the way Hollywood portrays fencing and sword fighting, have you noticed it evolve in any way over the years?
[0:15:20] MSS: I think, for me, it's just really exciting to see more of it in media. I think, at least from up from – if we're talking about specifically fencing, I think sword fighting is always, will always be popular. I think, it might look different ways, but I think sword fighting in cinema will continue to live on. It started with the Errol Flynn, Basil Rathbone, Fred Caveman's era and then has continued. I mean, Star Wars is, it's sword fighting. Laser swords, but it's still – lightsabers, it's still sword fighting, right? I think that'll continue to live on.
I'm very excited to see more fencing in media. That always makes me very happy, because that's – It's fun to hear kids come into the studio and they saw a scene and that's what made them want to start fencing, because that was – that's the story for a lot of people, as you mentioned earlier.
[0:16:15] BW: Yeah. Whatever the pathway that gets them into the sport is obviously, we applaud that. It seems like, that is a common one that I hear. You're right, it hasn't stopped, right? Wednesday on Netflix, for example, has fencing scenes in it. We've heard from a lot of our audience that they enjoyed seeing that depiction. It almost sounds like, you've had to become a real student of cinema in the way that fencing's been portrayed throughout history. I mean, you mentioned that Hook was an influence on you, but do you have a favorite fencing scene in all of cinema history, let's say?
[0:16:53] MSS: I mean, that one is probably one of my favorites. I mean, any Bob Anderson sword fights, those are iconic. Yeah, probably Hook is probably up there with my favorites. Zorro is another one of my favorites that I watched when I was younger, too, with Antonio Banderas. Then, of course, the one before that, the Mark of Zorro, which with Tyrone Power and Basil Rathbone is also iconic. If anyone hasn't seen that, you should go watch that on YouTube. That's pretty, pretty incredible, the swordplay that's going on in that movie.
[0:17:28] BW: What is the career path here for someone who's maybe a young fencer and they're saying, “You know what? Mary has carved out here. Sounds super cool. Maybe it's on the stunt side of it, the stunt work side of it, or fight choreography, or some sort of combination therein.” Is there a process that you could recommend to someone to follow in your footsteps, so to speak?
[0:17:52] MSS: I think, always continuing to, first of all, continuing to train is the most – I think, probably the most important thing, the biggest part of the job. If you talk to anyone else who works in stunts is really, it's the training, staying dedicated to the training. Just knowing that it keeps going. Training a variety of different things. I trained in boxing, various different types of Filipino martial arts as well, taking just several workshops on top of that. A lot of different stuff.
When I'm either creating choreography, or training an actor, I have a lot more to pull from. The fencing was definitely a great starting point for me. Once I continued to expand my movement base, I had much more options. If that's something that someone wants to pursue, it's just continuing to train, train all different types of things, train with different people, learn from different people. Just constantly be in a space of learning and growth.
[0:18:59] BW: One thing we briefly mentioned earlier and I want to get back to is the safety and inclusivity aspect. When you're working on a project, how do you ensure that both of those principles are upheld in your sessions and especially for women, making sure that they're comfortable in this scene that they're working on and supported in the way that we want them to be?
[0:19:22] MSS: I think, communication is the biggest point. That's what I tell. Even with our students in group classes, I always say, you have to, first of all, moving slow to begin with is the number one thing. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. That's something that we always come back to. Just communicating. Asking questions. Was that too quick? Should I slow down? Was there too much impact on that parry, or on that thrust, or whatever it is. Making sure that there's always an open space for communication and also, that the talent feels empowered enough to be able to ask questions by giving them knowledge as well.
I think that's very, very important. I think, actors also just naturally, can perform better when they have context and they feel safe and they feel comfortable. Also, in addition to going over any basic safety protocol and standards that we have in place for any types of weapons work.
[0:20:31] BW: Yeah. That makes total sense. I mean, there's the safety aspect to make sure that we're preventing injury. Then there's also just the safety of being feeling comfortable within the space and with people pretending to slash you with the sword, or whatever the scene might call for, right? I find that really interesting.
It sounds like, you're choreographing the initially at a slower speed. Is that ever a trick of movie magic, where the scene is recorded at a slower speed and then sped up? Or how does that work to make it the way it ends up looking when we're watching it at the theater at home?
[0:21:09] MSS: Yeah, there's definitely points where editing and speed ramping can really help. Sometimes, if you're moving too quick on certain parts, we lose some of the movement. It really just depends on what the context of the movement is. Also, another thing is you'll – once you hear this, I encourage everyone to start looking for it. You'll see that sometimes, things are doubled or tripled up in editing, where they'll show the same hit three or four times from a different spot. You might not realize that's what you're looking at, but it can give a certain level of impact for the audience by repeating movements.
Even if it is choreographed, shot a certain way, it's fun to see how things can turn out with editing after that. Because it can definitely be shot a certain way and then change a little bit in the editing process, too.
[0:22:06] BW: I mean, some of the fight scenes I see in movies, it's almost like, the camera person, for lack of a better term, obviously, I know there's other terms involved there, but it's almost like the camera person is part of the choreography, too, with the way they're moving through the scene. Are you accounting for that at all in your work?
[0:22:25] MSS: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it very much is like a dance with everyone involved. That's why we also create these pre-vis’s, which are basically pre-visualizations of the scene, the fight choreography before it gets shot. Everyone, we're not just showing up with the camera on the day of going, okay, what's the choreo? Then trying to figure it out now. Everything is very much blocked out in a way that everyone knows who's going to be where at what time exactly, so they can catch everything, too.
[0:23:00] BW: Is that like a video, or an animation, or a sketch? Or, what does that look like?
[0:23:04] MSS: Yeah, so the pre-visualization, they basically serve as – stunt coordinators get presented with a scene and they basically, or fight coordinators and they basically put together a pitch for what the scene could look like. They'll put that together not with the talent, but they'll put it together with other stunt performers, and just almost like a rough draft of what they visualize the scene to look like. That's shot, basically, in a studio, in a sound stage. You can look them up on YouTube, if you just look up stunt pre-vis. There's ton of them for some of your favorite films that are up online. They'll just create, yeah, just a rough, like a sketch, more or less, so everyone can get an idea of maybe what the scene would look like, or have input on what they would want to change.
[0:24:03] BW: It seems to me like, the fight choreography is one area where you just can't fake it with CGI. Is that true at all? Or is there some of this that they're like, “Well, we can just have CGI, have these two characters fight in this scene”?
[0:24:21] MSS: I think, sometimes having that, yeah, the human reference is really, really helpful. Some of the ones that I just saw that got posted online were from Blue Eye Samurai. I didn't work on that, but it’s someone else. I saw posted some of the pre-vis’s of that, and that's an animation series. But they created the pre-vis with people, to create the most authentic version of movement also, so people who are animating or work in visual effects have a reference point.
We have a lot of people in our group classes at Swordplay that are not actors. We have animators, we have directors, we have people who work in visual effects that aren't interested in performing on screen, but they want to understand movement and they want to understand just basic storytelling through fight choreography, so it can inform their choices a little bit more, depending on whatever role they're in in the entertainment industry.
[0:25:21] BW: What about stage combat? Any overlap there? Because that's obviously something that you only get really one take at it, but so you want to make sure you get it right.
[0:25:29] MSS: Yeah. I think, again, with stage combat, it's similar in the sense that we're telling a story through the fight, but the medium's different, where everything's going to be performed a little bit bigger, because – Definitely at a slower pace as well, especially if actors are doing it night after night after night.
[0:25:50] BW: Oh, right.
[0:25:52] MSS: It's, again, just a different medium of watching fight choreography. But we would definitely do things differently on a stage than we would for screen. There is some overlap with some of the movement with sword stuff, but it's things do get move a little bit faster and are a little bit more detailed on the film side.
[0:26:15] BW: Mary, I could talk to you all day about this, but I know you got a busy schedule. I want to wrap up by asking about the future of what you're doing and are there new developments, or trends, or projects that you have on the horizon, without breaking any NADs, of course, that really excite you, or something that you still want to accomplish that you haven't yet got to experience?
[0:26:38] MSS: Yeah. I really would just love to keep expanding what Swordplay is and what the club is, and just blending this line of fencing and pop culture. Because I think it is a much more accessible sport than people give it credit for. I think, fencing, also, I mean, I know for me, it's really helped with on-screen performance. It did give me a base of where to start with. I would love to just continue to grow that, showcase it for not only for the rest of the fencing community, but for the entertainment industry as well. I do have a couple of films coming out. I can't tell you the names yet, but when they do, when they do come out, I can definitely let you guys know a little bit later this summer.
[0:27:36] BW: That’s awesome.
[0:27:37] MSS: Yeah. Yeah. Really, right now, my focus is just continuing to build Swordplay as the place of all sorts, basically.
[0:27:47] BW: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, we didn't even get into the fact that you're a club owner as well, which we could spend a whole another hour talking about just that. We'll leave it there for now and encourage people to check out Swordplay LA. Easily found on Google, or just go to splafencing.com. Mary, thank you so much for joining us and best of luck to you and your students and we'll be watching your career as it continues to grow.
[0:28:14] MSS: Thanks so much. I appreciate it.
[0:28:16] BW: All right. Thank you.
[0:28:17] MSS: Thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:28:18] BW: Thanks for listening to First of 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. If you like this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating, or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the strip. Bye.
[END]