We're joined by Jess Davis, a modern pentathlete and epee fencer who trains at the New York Athletic Club. At the Pan American Games In October in Santiago, Chile, Jess qualified for the 2024 Olympic Games in the sport of modern pentathlon, which combines equestrian jumping, fencing, swimming, and the laser run — which is a combo of running and pistol shooting.
In this episode, we're exceptionally excited to welcome Jess Davis, a modern pentathlete and epee fencer who trains at the New York Athletic Club.
At the Pan American Games In October in Santiago, Chile, Jess qualified for the 2024 Olympic Games in the sport of modern pentathlon, which combines equestrian jumping, fencing, swimming, and the laser run — which is a combo of running and pistol shooting.
Jess is the reigning national champion in both modern pentathlon and Division I-A Women’s Epee. She got that fencing title this past summer in Phoenix, winning a number of exciting 14-14 bouts on her way to the crown.
We’re excited to welcome this a seven-time world team member and two-time national pentathlon champion to the podcast.
EPISODE 41
[INTRO]
[00:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell, and in this show, you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in the sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. Whether you're an Olympian or a Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:40] BW: Today, we are exceptionally excited to welcome Jess Davis, a modern pentathlete and épée fencer who trained at the New York Athletic Club. At the Pan American Games in October in Santiago, Jess qualified for the 2024 Olympic Games in the sport of modern pentathlon, which combines equestrian jumping, fencing, swimming, and the laser-run, which is a combo of running and pistol shooting. Jess is also the reigning national champion in modern pentathlon, and also in Division 1A women's épée. She got that fencing title this past summer and Phoenix, winning in a number of exciting 14-14 bouts on her way to the crown. So we're excited to welcome this seventh time world team member and two-time national pentathlon champion. Hello, Jess.
[0:01:20] JD: Hi. I'm so excited to be here.
[0:01:22] BW: Yes. Thank you so much for agreeing to do this. It's really exciting, you're the first modern pentathlon that we've had on the podcast. We're about 40 episodes, and now, so that's exciting for our audience as well. I said in the intro that modern pentathlon is swimming, fencing, horse riding, pistol shooting, and running. Of course, my first question is, which is your favorite and why is it fencing?
[0:01:44] JD: It's definitely fencing, which is actually such a shock, because it was the one event that I had to really learn to do this. I mean, I had to improve in all the events to get to the level I am, but I had zero previous knowledge of fencing as a sport, as even an option. At 21 years old, I had to completely learn the sport that I had no idea was about. That makes it all the more special that it became my favorite and also my strength. But coming from a track and field, and primarily running, and I moved to triathlon, I don't get to use my brain very often in sports. It was always, if you run X amount, or swim X amount, or bike X amount, you get this much better, so it was purely physical. Fencing was the first time I was ever able to really integrate my personality and my brain into a sport, and really make it my own. So it holds a special place in my heart.
[0:02:37] BW: Yes, that's a reason that a lot of people like fencing, is the mental side of it. When you're competing in modern pentathlon, how many of your opponents have lifelong fencing experience? Or are you in a similar boat with the rest of them as far as how much fencing training they've had going in?
[0:02:55] JD: No. I think especially on the world stage, and a lot these people are from countries that have training programs, start them at a very young age in a very centralized training program. So a lot of them have been fencing since they were young with each other for pentathlon. There probably are outliers out there who started as adults, but for the most part, I'm competing against people who've been doing this a very long time.
[0:03:18] BW: How do you decide that you want to pursue on pentathlon? You talked about how you done track and then triathlon. When did you decide, "I want to like pack as many sports as I can in my life"?
[0:03:30] JD: It was actually a fencer. So I live very close to Susie Paxton. She was on the Olympic team, and she had heard through some mutual friends, and we had met at like house party. She kind of knew I had this array of background where I rode horses, I did all these running events, and she kind of put the bug in my ear and put me in contact with the New York Athletic Club. Then, I think my third competition ever was a World Cup in Acapulco, so it just went very quickly from there.
[0:03:58] BW: At that first competition, how was your fencing at that point?
[0:04:03] JD: I actually wasn't bad. I remember getting over 50%, which in pentathlon, is kind of a bar you want to reach. You obviously want much more than 50%, but for a person for the third pentathlon ever, 50% was a pretty good winning streak.
[0:04:19] BW: At some point, you say, "Okay, I need to find a fencing coach and start taking fencing lessons, maybe even going to some USA fencing tournaments." How do you make that that leap, and what was that experience like, actually getting out there and saying, "If I'm going to take this seriously, I need to be practicing the 15 touch bouts and competing at the highest level of USA Fencing"?
[0:04:41] JD: I was so fortunate to be – I mean, the people you're surrounded by at the New York Athletic Club are, it's constantly inspiring, or surrounded by some of the best fencers in the country. It's really hard to walk in there and not want to be better, partially because you don't want to be the person getting beat constantly by these people who are so much better than you. You want to get better as quickly as possible. But I learned very quickly that I really enjoy competing in fencing.
Going to local tournaments was a big star, and for me, it was less of a have to and more of a want to. It became kind of my hobby to go to these small local tournaments and just create a community and it was fun for me. I think that led me to improve a lot quicker, because I was doing it out of enjoyment. Then all of a sudden, I was like, "Wow, I'm actually having successful tournaments. I'm doing well. I want to see where I can go. I want to see what kind of rating I can get." It just kind of took off from there.
[0:05:38] BW: Yes. Obviously, you've had success, and now you're Division 1A champion, so that's huge. But I want to go back to what you said earlier, that fencing allowed you to use your brain. Have you noticed a spillover from fencing into the other four disciplines of modern pentathlon in ways that it's not just helped you perform better as a modern pentathlon, but also in those other four sports?
[0:06:01] JD: It's definitely given me confidence. I think I've brought this up before, where sometimes, I think in pentathlon, because we do five sports instead of just isolating one. Is you can kind of have a little bit of impostor syndrome where you're like, "I'm a runner, but I'm a runner in pentathlon, so I'm not a runner. Or I'm a fencer, but I fence for pentathlon. Once I started to consider myself a fencer, and sort of train like a fencer, and fence like fencer, I also start to get confidence in the other sports being like, "I don't have to be a good runner from pentathlon, I could just be a good runner. I don't have to be a good swimmer from penthathlon, I can just be a good swimmer. So it gave me a lot of confidence in the other sports, and how I train for those sports, and how I view them mentally.
[0:06:42] BW: Was there an equivalent in those other sports, where you're going to USA Fencing summer nationals, and competing there? Are you also competing, and track competitions, and equestrian competitions, and things like that? Or is that more just training and preparing for your next modern pentathlon competition?
[0:07:01] JD: Yes, but we don't have the same access I think to those, as well as we do for USA Fencing. USA Fencing does a great job of making big competitions accessible to a lot of different ages, a lot of different abilities. I mean, we run 5ks, and we can do local horse shows, and that kind of thing. But we don't have the same accessibility to those kinds of competitions. So yes, there are things you can do, but at different levels.
[0:07:25] BW: Let's talk about your training schedule. How do you shape your week? Let's say, there's a competition coming up in a month, how are you looking at each week leading up to that as it pertains to getting yourself ready?
[0:07:37] JD: It's so much time management. An average training day, I'll maybe do three or four of the five. You'll very rarely do five. So we kind of look at things as in training blocks. A very easy way to look as an eight-week training block or 12-week training block. You'll build up to a certain point, and then you'll do a taper. But for us, it's usually a very small taper. But on a week-to-week basis, the training can be anywhere from three to seven hours a day. That's including, we have strength training, we have our PT, we have recovery. It's just managing schedules, and managing coaching and timing well. But also, being observant about which sports need a little bit more attention at certain times.
Right now, I'm very far out from the Olympics and from the World Cup season. I'm able to kind of dial it back, and work on the small things I need to work on, which is working on some stuff in fencing that I haven't had time to really slow down, and work on for a while, and building a base in running and swimming. It's really looking at what needs the most attention at what times, so that you can all bring it together when the time is right.
[0:08:45] BW: Let's talk about the fencing specifically, obviously, of interest to me and the audience of this podcast. These are one touch bouts, right? So it seems like the pressure is as high as it could possibly be. We're basically at 14-14 right when you step onto the strip cold. Can you explain how that format works and how that plays out in, let's say, a World Cup or the Pan Am Games?
[0:09:09] JD: Yes. It's way different, the energy is much different, everybody's getting – it is like – imagine getting on for 36 touches of being at 14-14 36 times in a row. Well, a few minutes in between. It's very high anxiety, it's very high stress. It's one touch one minute against everybody in the ranking round, which is 36 people in the final. You maybe have a couple minutes in between to get to the next strip. It's two and a half hours on average of just straight long-touch fencing. You look out on a graph, everybody has highs, and lows, and depths. Being able to pull yourself out of – if you've lost six in a row, getting yourself back in the game, but it is – it's a much higher stress fencing than anything I've experienced at any USA Fencing or any just 15-touch bouts.
[0:10:02] BW: Yes, totally. Because in a 15-14 bout, you've given up 14 touches, but you still win the bout, right? It still counts as one win, and everything else is just how you got there. But wow, the pressure seems –
[0:10:16] JD: You blink at the wrong moment, and you've lost the touch. It's crazy.
[0:10:21] BW: Can you train for that, for that pressure?
[0:10:24] JD: Yes. Doing one-touch drills really helps, doing any kind of time drills really helps. We do a lot of timing drills, because I think knowing, feeling what a minute feels like, and I've learned this actually from riding. In show jumping, when you have a show jumping course, you want to get in the ring, and you salute, you have a minute to start your course. I think a lot of people don't realize how long a minute really is, until they have a full minute to kill. Knowing where in one minute you're a better fencer for I think pentathletes is very beneficial. Some people want to wait to the last 10 seconds, some people want to score on the first 15 seconds.
If you can figure out drilling where you're the most comfortable in that minute, that can set you up very well for knowing once you get on strip, we're going to feel the most confident.
[0:11:10] BW: Then, if it's still tied at the end of that minute, what happens?
[0:11:13] JD: You both lose. No one gets a point.
[0:11:16] BW: You got to make your move in other words. You might as well, right. It's worth taking a risk in that last five or 10 seconds.
[0:11:22] JD: Yes, there's no priority. So you both – neither one of you hits, neither one of you gets it.
[0:11:27] BW: Got you. I know that like looking at the history of modern pentathlon, it used to be four or five days, and then it was a one-day format. Now, they're doing this 90-minute, really fast format. Can you talk about the evolution of that, and maybe how you've witnessed it over your own career?
[0:11:42] JD: Yes. When I started, it was – you'd have your semi-finals, top 36 would go into final, and it was all day. You might start the fencing in the morning, and then you'd have few hours, and you keep going, and it was a whole day event. Then recently, it moved into the three-day format, where it's the qualifying rounds, the semi-finals, and then the finals is the top 18. Coming from triathlon, I actually really love the 90-minute format. I don't know if that's an unpopular opinion or popular opinion right now, because it is fairly new.
I don't know, something about the 90-minute format and having to go quickly to each one, it's unable to kind of stay in the game a little bit better, and stay focused, and kind of keep that adrenaline high. I like feeling like I'm racing. I've enjoyed that. Those are really the only two evolutions I've seen. Because when I started, that was kind of where they were already at, and where they were heading. I enjoy the 90-minute format. I think it's really fun. It's very different.
[0:12:36] BW: Yes. It's obviously in this era of TV and streaming, that's from a fans perspective.
[0:12:40] JD: God make things really exciting and really fast.
[0:12:42] BW: Exactly. Exactly. That makes perfect sense. Let's talk about Santiago, were you qualified for the Olympics. What was that experience like? Do you have a favorite memory from that competition?
[0:12:55] JD: The funny thing about that competition was, it actually wasn't one of my best competitions. I didn't have the fence I necessarily wanted. I was shooting a little bit off, and I'm riding, I pulled the tricky horse, but still was able to get around. Knowing that it wasn't a great competition, and I was still able to hold it together in the end was very important. I think that's what – being in the sport for so long, you kind of learned that the day isn't over till it's over. Being able to hold that together through the last lap was very important. I also got a kind of unique experience, which I thought was cool.
A lot of people when they qualify, they qualify because of – they cross the finish line and see they've gotten a certain time, or they get an email that they've hit a certain amount of points. I kind of knew probably like my second to last lap, that as long as I didn't fall down, I was probably going to qualify. I got to kind of run the last two laps of my race, and kind of have this internal celebration that was like, "I'm going to run my race, and know that when I cross that finish line, I've qualified." I think that was a cool experience that not always people get to have, that was very special to me.
[0:14:03] BW: Then who's the first call, text, hug that you give in person? Who are you there to celebrate with?
[0:14:09] JD: Well, I had my whole family there, and my fencing coach, and my husband, and my friends. It was hard because everyone's there, and you want to hug everybody, and talk to everybody. But it's funny, you're still kind of in competition mode. The people who you almost want to be around is like, you want to say congratulations to your teammates. These girls that you've been competing with for years, like you want to congratulate them, you want to hug them, but there's too many people. I think I forgot, I left my husband in charge of texting my coach, because I was too busy celebrating.
[0:14:37] BW: Of course, of course. Now, modern pentathlon, it seems like your qualification comes kind of early in the year, which is great, because that pressures off, and you can get ready. But also, that's a lot of time. How are you managing the, let's say seven months, eight months before Paris to make sure that you're peaking at that at that right time?
[0:14:58] JD: Not rushing. I love competing, and I love working. I love working really hard. I like kind of putting my head down and grinding. It's actually managing myself from doing that is going to be the hardest, but we haven't had a lot of time. The past couple years has been crazy. We had a condensed cycle because of COVID. It's a three-year cycle versus a four-year cycle. I've had a lot of time to kind of like go back to the drawing board. Really, I was saying, work on certain things in fencing, and build this base in running and swimming. Taking things very slow right now, and really trying to go back to basics, and make everything as close to perfect as I can. So that, by the time I get to where I need to be, everything is new, and shiny, and working really well in a way that it hasn't in the past.
But I also, like competing this year, it'll be really nice, because I'm not going to be competing for the World Cups or training for the World Cups. I'm going to be training for the Olympics, but using World Cups as training tools and competitions. It's a much different mindset than I've ever had.
[0:16:00] BW: Can you tell us about the World Cup season in modern pentathlon? Because myself, I'm more familiar with the FIE, the fencing World Cup calendar. What does your schedule look like?
[0:16:10] JD: We have four World Cups, a World Cup final, and a World Championship that are all very close together, because they're all have to happen before the Olympics. Starting in March, we have our first one. I'll probably do two or three of them, depending on how I'm feeling, how it's going. Then, if you qualify based on the World Cups, you go to the World Cup final and in the World Championships. Which for us, because those are the last pathways to qualify, are through the Olympic ranking points. There are direct spots at the World Championships. That's how the rest of the people will qualify.
[0:16:43] BW: Got it, you'll find out who you're going to be competing against. Interesting. That's really cool. Over the years, you said you started this when you were 21, right? How have you evolved with age as an athlete?
[0:16:57] JD: I love talking to people about this. I think so many people forget that you don't hit an age, and then all of a sudden, you're never too old to be an athlete. Especially in our sport, when you see a lot of people who are a little bit older, and I think that's because it takes that long to figure out how to compete in this sport.
[0:17:15] BW: And you're in your early 30s, right?
[0:17:16] JD: I'm 31, yes. But more than anything, when I think back to when I was in my mid-20s, and when I was starting to get competitive. I liked competing, but I didn't enjoy it in the same way. It was all. how good did I do, where did I mess up, what needs to be fixed. It's very head down, get to work, no time to actually take in anything. Over the past year or two, I've completely switched my mindset, and I think it's with the age. No matter what, I just enjoy every second of every competition, good or bad, the people around. I think that that's a really important thing that younger athletes miss out on. It's just, take a second to sit back and think about how cool it is that you get to do what you do. Don't be so hard on yourselves.
[0:17:58] BW: That's cool. I mean, that's great advice for fencing too, because if we look at our Olympians in fencing, the age there is late 20s, early 30s and beyond. Especially, it seems like in épée, you can fence for even longer than that. That's great advice. Can you talk a little bit about the flow of those 90 minutes? Because I feel like it'd be helpful for people to know what you're doing in that time, and how it all shakes out, I guess you could say.
[0:18:27] JD: Yes, definitely. Now, we ride first. It kind of sets your day up. If you get eliminated in the ride, you kind of know where you stand the rest of the day, you're starting with no points, or except for your ranking round points. You do your ride, you have 20 minutes to warm up that horse, and then you have to go do your show jumping course.
[0:18:46] BW: You said you pulled a tricky horse. Does that mean that it's just completely random?
[0:18:51] JD: It's a totally random draw, yes. Literally, the horse is – the first person who's in first place after the ranking round, which is the day before in fencing. Those are the 36 touches that you do, that set you up for your placement for the 90-minute format. First who wins that literally draws a number out of a hat. That's their horse, and everybody kind of falls into line based on the number that that person pulled. It is like a draw. A good rider I think can make something out of a bad job. But a bad rider is going to have some struggles. But good horse, tricky horse, we got around, we pulled a couple rails, but he was good. So yes, you have 20 minutes, and then you do your show jumping course, and then you quickly change. You do your fencing ranking rounds, which is always fun to explain to people.
It's to say, you're in 10th place, you will then fence the person in ninth place. Whoever wins will continue on to fence the person eighth, whoever wins that. So you can accumulate some more points.
[0:19:48] BW: Or you could be done after that first –
[0:19:50] JD: Or you can be done after that first one. But it's a way to – if you look at a lot of people, you get two points per win, which might seem like not a lot of points. But if you look at the end of the day, two points means a lot. It's worth trying to get a couple touches, then you quickly change. You might have 15 minutes to get over to the pool, put your tech suit on, which sometimes can take the full 15 minutes just to get on. Then, you have to do a 200-meter freestyle swim.
[0:20:14] BW: This is just against the clock or there's –
[0:20:17] JD: Well, yes, you're racing. But yes, it's mostly time. You're racing against your times. Then, after that, it's about another probably 15 minutes to get over to the run shoot, where it's a staggered start. The person who is in first place will start when the clock is at zero. If you're in second place, and you're 15 points behind, you're starting that amount of seconds behind. The person who finishes the race first is actually the winner of the entire day.
[0:20:42] BW: That's better for TV too.
[0:20:43] JD: Yes, absolutely. There's no question. They don't have to calculate at the end who won. The first, second, and third are actually for a second and third.
[0:20:50] BW: I like that. For the laser pistol part, the shooting part, are you penalized if you miss or how does that –
[0:20:57] JD: You have 50 seconds to hit the target five times. You have to touch it. It's one arm if you touch the table in between each shot. If you're taking the full 50 seconds, it's probably – it's not great. Most people are doing it somewhere between like 10 and 20 seconds.
[0:21:12] BW: Interesting. Okay. Then, you get to the end and you know exactly how you've done. Then, are you the type who will just go back and watch video of yourself and just kind of overanalyze every single bit? Not that that's bad. Or do you allow yourself to soak in the moment?
[0:21:29] JD: I kind of let myself live in the moment. I've always been a kind of in the moment athlete. I mean, I've got coaches who I really trust, and they'll kind of analyze that if there's something they need to bring to my attention, they will. It's really hard in pentathlon, because you can always say, "If I had done this in this event, or if I'd done that, and that event, I've got a few points here, few points there, and you can drive yourself crazy by doing that. I really try once I finish the day to just be happy with the day I had, and then work on it with my coaches when I get back. I think sometimes, overanalyzing especially in the moment can just lead to negative thoughts, and some self-doubt, and using it productively instead of emotionally is usually my go to.
[0:22:10] BW: I was actually lucky enough to watch you in Phoenix when you won the Division 1A Women's Championship. We chatted a little bit after that, we did an interview. In that, you said that you feel like modern pentathlon has helped you have the kind of endurance that you need to get through a fencing tournament, which those, I don't have to tell you can be sometimes 8am to 8pm, just almost nonstop. What was that experience like and how has that helped give you confidence when you get out there on the strip, in either pentathlon or in fencing?
[0:22:41] JD: Well, in fencing, it's definitely how it's because – I'm often on strip with people who I am technically outmatched by who. Full-time fencers are very good and more skilled than I am. But the one thing I can control is, I know that I have the shape I'm in. I'm in very good shape, I'm in better shape, I can say confidently than most, and I can rely on that. Using my fitness to be able to help me be confident, knowing that I can make it to the end of the day, and I can do all these bouts. I mean, every single bout that day. I think except for maybe one or two was a 14-14 bout. I mean, it took forever, and I was exhausted. But knowing that I could trust my body to carry me to the ends, and keep me going. You feel like you have a safety to fall back on. The skill might not be there, or the energy might not be there, and my body won't let me down.
[0:23:31] BW: People who are interested in, they're hearing this are like, "I love fencing and I also love the other disciplines of pentathlon." How do you even get started in this sport as somebody who maybe is, like you were a decade ago in their 20s and says, "This sounds like something I might want to try"?
[0:23:50] JD: I have a very jump in headfirst kind of mentality, especially with a sport. I think the best way to do it is just to do it. Because I don't think you know – it's hard to necessarily – you can train for pentathlon, especially if you have people around you that are knowledgeable and can help you, but so you don't. The best way to learn what you need to do to train for one is to do one. Doing local tournament – there are actually regionals, we have domestic competitions. There are fewer, and usually I've traveled to them. But I always recommend to people to just do them, and to feel what it feels like, to understand what your strengths and weaknesses might be, and then go from there.
Everybody I talked to in pentathlon kind of has like a very similar origin story over the like, "Well, I did a lot of sports, and I was pretty good at a lot of things." Then, I thought this would be a good idea, and then it took off. If you're one of those athletes that you're interested in a lot of things, and you're pretty athletic, and you're driven, just jumping in, and finding a competition, and giving it a try, and then talking to people, and creating community, and going from there is usually the best bet.
[0:24:56] BW: Yes. It seems like you've developed that community. I noticed when you've been talking, you keep using we and not I. Talk a little bit about the team behind your success, and the fact that you're the one out there competing, but it sounds like you're not giving yourself 100% of the credit for all that you've done.
[0:25:15] JD: It's a huge group effort. There are so many people, especially with five sports. I'm fortunate enough that I have lived, and trained with my teammate, and one of my best friends through this sport for the past three years. That's helped tremendously. We traveled together, we eat together, we drive to coaching and training together. That's been very helpful. My coaches, I've really built a group of coaches who I trust completely, and have put a lot of faith in me and vice versa. You really can't do it alone. It's one of those sports that you can try to do it alone, but your success really comes from the people that you surround yourself with.
[0:25:54] BW: Yes, I love that. Any final advice that you want to give to any young athletes, fencing, pentathlon, anything, something that you want to want them to take away from this conversation?
[0:26:06] JD: I was a very late bloomer as an athlete. I was good in track and field, but I wasn't great, I was a good rider. But when I talk to, even some of the kids at my local clubs, and it's not about necessarily being the best Y12 or being the best Y14 or cadette. You have a long career and you might not peak when your teammates peak. You might not be the best when your best friend is the best at their sport. But it doesn't mean that you can't be. If more kids would just understand the longevity of sport and what they can give, and they will get what they've given into it, that it will always come back around if you work hard. It might not happen as quickly as you want it to, but if you are putting the effort in, it will come around eventually.
[0:26:50] BW: You're living example of it.
[0:26:53] JD: Yes. I think a lot of people, kind of when I talk to them, they're like, "Oh, you must have just been like a prodigy." I was like, "Absolutely not." I was like, "I was a very late bloomer, but I stuck with it. One thing I do have is I'm a very hard worker." So I knew that as long as I kep – my coaches kept motivating me, they said, "Just keep your head down, keep working, you'll get there." I don't like seeing when kids get discouraged because they're not the best at whatever age they're at, because there's a lot more years ahead of them, and there's a lot more that they can accomplish.
[0:27:24] BW: That's great advice. Well, Jess Davis, thanks so much. You've given us a lot of things to think about, and taught us a lot about modern pentathlon, and about your career. Now, you've got a lot of new fans out there, I think. Congratulations, and good luck in – well, the run up to Paris and of course, Paris itself.
[0:27:42] JD: Yes. Thank you so much. I hope to see you this season.
[0:27:44] BW: That's awesome. Thank you.
[0:27:45] JD: Thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:27:46] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the strip. Bye.
[END]