In this episode, we're thrilled to be talking with none other than Jackie Dubrovich, 2020 Tokyo Olympian and a standout star in women's foil. Jackie, hailing from the New Jersey Fencing Alliance, is a seasoned competitor in the world of fencing and is currently ranked 17th in the world in women’s foil. We’re recording this live at Summer Nationals in Phoenix, where Jackie and her women’s foil teammates are doing a training camp in part to prepare for the World Championships in Milan, Italy. This will be Jackie’s fourth Senior World Team, but her impressive track record goes back more than a decade — including three team silver medals and one gold at the Junior/Cadet World Championships, a team bronze at the 2019 Senior World Championships, and a team silver at the 2022 Senior World Championships in Cairo.
In this episode, we're thrilled to be talking with none other than Jackie Dubrovich, 2020 Tokyo Olympian and a standout star in women's foil. Jackie, hailing from the New Jersey Fencing Alliance, is a seasoned competitor in the world of fencing and is currently ranked 17th in the world in women’s foil.
We’re recording this live at Summer Nationals in Phoenix, where Jackie and her women’s foil teammates are doing a training camp in part to prepare for the World Championships in Milan, Italy.
This will be Jackie’s fourth Senior World Team, but her impressive track record goes back more than a decade — including three team silver medals and one gold at the Junior/Cadet World Championships, a team bronze at the 2019 Senior World Championships, and a team silver at the 2022 Senior World Championships in Cairo.
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First to 15: The Official Podcast of USA Fencing
Host: Bryan Wendell
Cover art: Manna Creations
Theme music: Brian Sanyshyn
EPISODE 31
[INTRO]
[00:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell, and in this show, you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in the sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. So whether you're an Olympian or a Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:40] BW: Today we are thrilled to be talking with none other than Jackie Dubrovich, 2020 Tokyo Olympian, and a standout star in women's foil. Jackie hails from the New Jersey Fencing Alliance, and is a seasoned competitor in the world of fencing currently ranked 17th in the entire world and women's foil. We're actually recording this here at Summer Nationals in Phoenix, where Jackie and her women's foil teammates are doing a training camp, and a lot of other fun activities, all to get ready for worlds in Milan, Italy. It is actually Jackie's fourth senior world team and her track record goes back even further than that, more than a decade, including – I'm looking this up here. Three teams, silver medals, one gold team metal at junior cadets, and then a team bronze in 2019 at senior worlds and a team silver last summer. I was lucky enough to see that in Cairo. Welcome to the podcast, Jackie.
[0:01:29] JD: Thanks for having me.
[0:01:31] BW: All right. So there's been online, a story about kind of your origin, and fencing, and involves like dancing somehow. Can you tell us like how you got your start and where this came from?
[0:01:43] JD: Yes. When I was younger, I was in dance and gymnastics. I would hardly call myself a dancer or gymnast. Yes, when I was younger, I would say – I started maybe I was five or six, and I was very – always tall, pretty uncoordinated, very lanky, and it just did not fare very well. It was not conducive to my just body type and coordination. I did not want to continue doing either of those. I had a cousin who fens in high school, at Fair Lawn High School. New Jersey has like a very well-developed high school fencing scene, and so my parents tried to get me into fencing that way, because they ran in the family. I didn't like it at first, I would say, for several years, I was really just purely motivated by winning. That was really why I liked the sport, is I liked the aggressive nature of it. I liked beating up on people and, and I didn't really – I guess, I think truly love and appreciate the sport for what it is.
Obviously, as I've gotten older, I have, you know, learn how to really love and appreciate fencing for what it is. But in the beginning, it was really just about the accolades, and the medals, and things like that. But obviously now, 21 years into the sport, it's much more than just about winning stuff.
[0:02:54] BW: Yes, sure. You've met some great friends along the way. I mean, going back to what you said, I feel like New Jersey has this high school fencing scene that other states just don't have yet. You were actually fencing like as a class in high school, or what exactly, how did that work?
[0:03:11] JD: Yes. I was part of the high school fencing program at Pompton Lakes High School for my first two years, so my freshman and sophomore years. It just became too difficult to balance both the commitments to high school fencing, as well as my commitments to the US team, and also preparing for college. So something kind of just had to give there. So I decided to just seriously pursue training for the various cadet, and junior teams, and also just preparing to get into college. But yes, the New Jersey High School fencing scene, and it's only continued to grow, and expand, and New Jersey Fencing Alliance. My fiancé, Brian works with a lot of members of like the Columbia High School Fencing Team. That's his alma mater. That's where he went to high school, so it's really cool to see it all come full circle. But it's really, really great to see that high school fencing really flourishes, and you have some of the best talents, and fencing come from New Jersey, so it's really cool to see.
[0:04:04] BW: Yes, for sure. Speaking of some of the best talents from New Jersey, at what point did you realize that you were ready to take that next step? Maybe even, let's start with taking the step to go to a NAC or a Summer Nationals, which is where we're at right now. When did you realize that I'm ready to see how I fare nationally, and then we'll talk about internetional?
[0:04:25] JD: Yes. I would say, it was – I think later than most people, and I see now, it's so different. Parents are really putting their kids into NACs as early as possible, and really getting that exposure, you know, as soon as they qualify. Whereas for me, it was a little bit I think later than most. I feel like I took my time getting both into the national fencing scene as well as international fencing seen. I remember in Miami – I don't even remember what year it was. It was Summer Nationals in Miami. That was my first Summer Nationals and that was kind of like my first taste of a huge production.
Now, seeing what Summer Nationals has evolved into, compared to what it was like back then. I mean, it's so much larger now. But back then, I was very starry eyed, and very excited to be able to compete among the nation's best. I kind of just continued that thing. I was really inspired there and really thought that I could seriously pursue making those various cadet and junior teams, and that's when I started traveling to all those NACs and kind of the rest is history.
[0:05:26] BW: Yes. One thing I love about fencing tournaments, specifically, the ones that USA fencing puts on is that, you do have Olympians in the pool. I don't think as a youth, you could go to a swim meet and like swim against Katie Ledecky. But here, you could swim against Jackie Dubrovich, or you could fence against Jackie Dubrovich, excuse me. Maybe not swim, right? You say being starstruck, did you have a moment like that where someone that you had looked up to you got to watch them fence or even fence against them at a young age?
[0:05:58] JD: Yes, I mean, I was watching all of those, the women's foils before me, the ones who are making the teams, some who later became my teammates like Nzingha Prescod, Nicile Ross, women who have definitely paved the way for future generations and just, you know, being among such talent, and that eventually being able to compete alongside them against them be teammates. It's been a really long, beautiful journey to this point.
[0:06:24] BW: That's great. We talked in the intro about your first World Championship medal, which was in 2011 in the team event. What was that like getting that maybe validation of all the hard work and just sharing that with your teammates?
[0:06:39] JD: Yes, it was – boy, that was a long time ago. It's been a while? Yes, no, it definitely feels amazing to be able to work together, work towards a common goal. I mean, I think fencing is very unique, and that it's an individual sport at its core, right? You are really going to – it's you versus your opponent, and to have kind of this almost like recalibration where you have to – still have those like individualistic instincts. But then, in a team environment, it's very unique. I think most fencers are pretty like fiercely independent, individualistic, and then to be able to put all those people together, and work towards a common goal, and then ultimately succeed as a very beautiful thing. I think yes, fencing is very unique in that way.
I've spoken to a lot of friends and other different sports, and they are kind of like confused at how you can go one day fencing against this person, and going as hard as you can screaming, and yelling, and fighting for every touch. Then the very next day, you're on the same team together, and you're fencing another country, and you're trying to win the gold medal. So it is very, very unique. When all that hard work and dedication comes together, it's really amazing.
[0:07:49] BW: Yes, and that's what I love about the team event too, is it really does bring together a lot of people with different styles. Our women foil team right now is amazing and you're a big part of that. When you're out there, what are you trying to accomplish? What do you feel like you're bringing to that team of three or four going against some of the other best women in the world?
[0:08:11] JD: Yes. I think our team is very unique, because you have myself and Lee, who are now the older women, the veterans, the ones who have had a lot of experience on the senior circuit, who have competed in Tokyo together. Then you have kind of the new generation, that new crop of talent coming in. It's amazing to be able to work together. Like you said, we have very different styles, different personalities. But I would say, for me personally, what I bring is kind of like that veteran mentality, being able to kind of be a role model to the younger girls, as well as support them, help them because senior level fencing is very different than junior level fencing. I think there's a lot of stress, and just things that you learned along the way, as you get older on the circuit. I think that Lee and I can just impart to the younger generation.
I think, personally, like my style, I'm very physically aggressive. I have, I think, a pretty physical presence on the strip. I bring a lot of intensity, a lot of drive, a lot of passion. I think that is a big part of what I can bring to the team, is that drive, and that intensity that hopefully inspires my teammates as well.
[0:09:27] BW: Yes, for sure. At the same time, the other dynamic is that at the same time that you're inspiring them, you also have that crop who is in some way also trying to like bump you out of your position too, right?
[0:09:39] JD: For sure, yes.
[0:09:39] BW: Because there's only four spots. There are only three that are going to compete in the individual event in Milan, for example. How do you stay at the top of your own game? You mentioned that you're one of the elder states women, but you're only 29 or you're turning 29, right?
[0:09:55] JD: Turning 29, yes. They always tell me how old I am. The younger girls on the team, they make me feel like I'm much older than 29.
[0:10:03] BW: How do you keep the intensity that you need to stay in that position?
[0:10:08] JD: Yes, it's hard sometimes, being on the circuit for now. Fencing competitively for 21 years, it can be very mentally, physically, emotionally exhausting. I think as someone who really thrives in that kind of environment, where there is all that intensity, and passion, and aggressiveness. I think sometimes, you can't always bring that every single time you compete. You can try to strive for it, but it is very hard, and it is a very long arduous season to – like during the Olympic qualification season. I just try to tell myself to bring that as much as I can. If there are any tournaments that are duds, and I don't do as well as I'd like, you know, I learned from them, and I try to tell myself to not take each loss so hard. Because I think just naturally, I'm this very passionate person, it can really propel me, and really be one of the key drivers in my success, but it can also kind of be my Achilles heel. It can be tough, because I take each loss very hard. I kind of have to have that balance, just to remind myself. And yes, I would say.
I think also, just like we were talking about having that experience, I think – I've been to an Olympics, I've been at World Championships, I've been in all these different scenarios, and team events, and individual events, where I've kind of gleaned and learned from those experiences, and I'm able to apply those solutions or things that I've learned now to future competitions. I think that is also a pretty big advantage. That's why you see sometimes on the circuit, women who maybe are older and are fencing, maybe like physically more dominant, faster, stronger, younger fencer, but the older fencer wins. A lot of times it is attributed to like that, that experience that they have garnered throughout the years. I think being older is not always too bad.
[0:12:04] BW: Yes. You talked about the grueling season and the fact that there are just so many events. You guys are always on the road, it seems like. What is a maybe typical training day or training week like for you?
[0:12:18] JD: Yes, it's hard when it's – we're traveling so much right now, I would say. When we're kind of ramping up into the season, I'm training five days a week. It consists of strength and conditioning sessions, I take private lessons, I do general body maintenance work. So maybe not like going to the gym and doing weights, but things that are kind of freestanding, but just making sure that my joints and everything is firing correctly. Foot work, drills, situational bouting, and fencing competitively. It's pretty intense, but it gets pretty difficult when we are traveling so much. Women's foils had a particularly grueling stretch here, where we had one of our competitions moved to the end of the season, and so it's been really tough. We haven't really had much of a break.
I think during this time period, it's just knowing that you're confident in your abilities, you're not going to change that much in this stretch of time. So just making sure you're taking care of your body, eating well, resting, recovering. I think making sure that your body is okay because you're putting so much stress on it, is like the number one focus right now.
[0:13:21] BW: Yes. Then there's the other half of the game, which is the mental side, right? Do you have like a ritual, or something that you do to get yourself mentally prepared for a World Cup, Grand Prix, or even World's coming up in Milan?
[0:13:34] JD: Yes. I've tried throughout my career like various different techniques and methods. What I found that works really well for me personally, is to kind of just shut myself off from everybody else. I kind of like to just have my space, put my headphones on, kind of be in that really super focused mode, and not really – you won't find me really talking very much to other people, like laughing, joking around. I've have a very serious face when I'm competing.
[0:14:01] BW: Does that start at the morning of?
[0:14:03] JD: Yes, I would say morning of. It's a little bit different, the team event. But when it's an individual event, I am very much just kind of to myself, and I find that that's a better headspace for me to be in when I want to compete my best.
[0:14:16] BW: What's going through – so I never was an elite athlete. What's going through your mind at that point? Are you visualizing what's going to happen? Are you going through some checklists in your mind? What is happening?
[0:14:27] JD: I would say, for me, what goes through my head is just trying to remain very present in the moment. I think, I am like – sometimes you get those intrusive thoughts. Let's say you fenced – I had this happen to me this season where I had fenced a competitor on the circuit and I lost to her in the round of 32 out of competition, and I was facing her again. Then for me, you sometimes in the back of your head, you start hearing those voices, "Oh, you lost to her. You can't do this" and you start to kind of almost psych yourself out. I really tried to be very present, listen to music, kind of shut myself off from my surroundings, and hopefully those voices in my head that are telling me all these things, and just really like focus at the task at hand. I think I'm a pretty focused, determined individual. When I'm able to just focus on what's in front of me, and not take any of those other things into consideration, it usually works out pretty well for me.
[0:15:22] BW: Yes. I also wonder in those moments, are you talking with your coach at all or are you just like, "This is not the time when I want to have that dialogue"?
[0:15:31] JD: Yes. I usually would only talk to Brian who's my coach, Ralf as well. But I don't really like to go to teammates for advice, if they've maybe fence in that fencer pools or fence them in a previous competition. I have found that we all are different fencers, we have different styles, we have different approaches. So what may work for one fencer may not work for another, and I don't really want to adapt my game to what somebody else's experience was like. I really just try to only talk to Brian, my coach, who knows my fencing the best, and also Ralf as well in the national coach, and then I just kind of stayed to myself, other than that.
[0:16:07] BW: You mentioned your coach, and he's also your fiancé. What's that dynamic like? Because that obviously isn't the case with every coach-athlete, where they also are partners in life as well, right?
[0:16:18] JD: Yes, it's a very complicated dynamic, and it's one that I constantly have to work at, because it's just tough. When Brian is yelling at me in a fencing bout, I need to remind myself, and it's kind of hard sometimes in the moment that he's not yelling at me as my partner, he's yelling at me as my coach. So sometimes those wires do get crossed, and it is difficult. I mean, it's also the coolest thing to be able to experience this with my significant other. It's such a unique experience. We'll be able to tell our kids about this one day, and I hope he enjoys it. I know it's stressful, but I do very much enjoy this experience with him. But I do think it's, you know, it's constant work. I mean, a relationship is constant work, but I think this is also just like such a unique circumstance to be in because it is so stressful.
Now, we're in the Olympic qualifying period, and so that adds another 10 layers of stress on top of everything. I think he's a fantastic coach, and I have learned so much from him working with him in this quad that I wouldn't have asked for. Could have asked for a better coach.
[0:17:19] BW: Are there times when the two of you are able to turn off the fencing mind and just veg out or talk about something else?
[0:17:26] JD: Oh, yes. It's like a requirement, I think in our household.
[0:17:30] BW:[Inaudible 0:17:30]
[0:17:31] JD: Yes, it's very much necessary. I mean, there's times where we'll like watch fencing video at home. But that would be the only time I think that I ever really feel that there was like a crossover between fencing and in our home life. In our home life, we do just try to not talk about fencing all the time, because it can be very all consuming, especially because, you know now, before I was working full time, and then I recently, in January of this year, just transitioned to training full time for Paris. So it can feel very all-consuming to just talk about fencing at every part of my day, and only be focusing on fencing. So we do make a very conscious effort to enjoy each other and not just talk about fencing.
[0:18:11] BW: I mean, meanwhile, you're right about like what a great experience, because you're getting to not only have the fencing experience together, but also travel the world. That seems like an extra bonus.
[0:18:21] JD: Yes, it definitely is, and we're taking full advantage of it for sure.
[0:18:26] BW: Yes, I love that. We talked about Team USA, and kind of the dominance that women's foil has had, and the fact that you and your teammates are always in the conversation to metal everywhere you go. In fact, if you don't metal at a World Cup, that might be seen as a disappointment. I mean, let's be honest. What is it like having that pressure where anything, but a metal is seen as maybe a failure?
[0:18:54] JD: Yes, I think for us, we don't really think about it that much. I think if we go in, we have a good mindset, we're prepared. We fence like we are capable of fencing. We can do incredible things, and we can win gold medals. But you know, we're also very cognizant that somebody may not have a good day, and we may need the other teammates to step in, and to take the lead, and take charge there. But I've never felt that we're nervous. I think we have a really good mix of personalities, people that can kind of lighten the mood. We're feeling nervous if we need to be super focused at the task at hand. We also have other people who can kind of redirect the attention that way. Ralf does a fantastic job as a national coach leading us as well. I think, I mean, in the back of our head, like of course, when we're thinking about Milan, we want to win and we know that it's going to be very intense. It's the last world championships before the Olympics. It's in Italy, right? We frequently go head-to-head against Italy in the Gold Medal Match.
[0:19:57] BW: Home field for them.
[0:19:57] JD: Yes, yes. There is that. That's always in the back of your head. But like the mindset that I have when I fence individual events as well, is you have to just be present, be in the moment. Don't let those thoughts kind of creep in and just focus on being there with my teammates. Also, I think as somebody who's closer to the end of her career than the beginning, I have definitely learned to appreciate this journey very much. I really tried to kind of tell myself like wow, if you take a step back, you're at the World Championships. This is the pinnacle other than Olympics, but this is the pinnacle of sport, and you are one of the people that's representing the US. Like really take it in, and soak in the experience, because not everybody will be able to say that they experienced that. I think that also kind of helps my mindset a little bit as well.
[0:20:47] BW: You mentioned Ralf, and that's women's foil national coach, Ralf Bissdorf. Is there something that you feel like he's taught you, or like a tactic, or a way of thinking that has really stood out, and you feel like helped your team game, your individual game, whatever?
[0:21:03] JD: Yes. I really like – Ralf is very matter of fact, he will tell you exactly what he sees, and he is always able to frame things in a really obvious way that you're like, "Huh, why was I freaking out about things so much?" That's a really great perspective, and that's a really great way to kind of recalibrate my thinking. I tend to be more pessimistic than optimistic, and it's just very innate to me, and it's so ingrained in me, and I have to actively work on it. Ralf makes it much easier, because if I go to him, and I talked to him after an individual loss, or if I do really well in team, he just always knows the right thing to say. Whether it's a tactical thing, or just like a human thing, like when he's like, "You fence really, really well today. I'm really proud of you." He just knows exactly what to say in those moments, and so I really appreciate that.
[0:21:53] BW: That's cool. That's definitely a skill. I feel like as a coach that knowing – because he probably has 50 thoughts going through his head, and he's like, "Which one of these is the right for this? What's the right move in this moment?"
[0:22:06] JD: Yes. I think he's also, like I said, very, very straight to the point. I'm someone who just appreciates honesty, I don't really like flowering this. I just want you to tell me like it is, and I can take it the good and the bad, and he does that, so I appreciate it very much.
[0:22:23] BW: Moving to Summer Nationals. We're here in Phoenix when we're recording this. One of the many things on your schedule is this fence with Olympians Clinic. I mean, the photos tell a lot of the story there, which is that, there's these little kids who are – most of them or all of them are foil fencers, I guess, right?
[0:22:40] JD: Yes.
[0:22:40] BW: And they're able to learn from you, and Lee, and the other women who are here. What does that experience like for you, though? Because obviously, you can see their smiles that say, once in a lifetime opportunity for them. But are you getting something out of that, too?
[0:22:56] JD: Yes, for sure. We always look forward to this clinic every year. I think, personally for me, I feel very strongly that when I do retire from the sport, I think it's very important to remain in the sport in some capacity, whether that's like a mentor. I think I can bring a lot of my experience and talk to these female athletes, whether they want to go to an elite level, or they're just fencing for fun, or they're just fencing to get into college. To be able to see the impact of just like this one hour of time where we may teach them some tangible fencing things, but it's just like the interaction. Being able to see like their eyes grow wide when they see us or when we have the Q&A session, and they asked us all these questions about our lives, and our experiences in the sport. You can see that it truly impacts people. I think that's like the most beautiful thing, is being able to give back to a sport that has given me so much.
[0:23:52] BW: Yes, and that segues really well, because you talk about once your career is done. that you want to continue giving back. Well, obviously, there's a lot more to do before that point happens. What are some of your goals for your fencing career?
[0:24:05] JD: Yes. I would love for us to win the gold medal, and the team event in Paris. I think we've done a lot of work to get to this point. There's still a lot more work to be done, and it's an always evolving process, but I think we have a really good shot. I think our track record this quad has proven that we are able to metal and we are also able to win. That would be unbelievable. I mean, I missed out on a team medal in Tokyo, we lost in the bronze medal match to Italy. That was definitely a very difficult thing to come home to, and took some time to work through that.
Then, you know, I really want to fence the individual event in Paris, and just give it my absolute best, and be able to implement all the things that I've been working on with Brian, and throughout my whole career, and just have any credible tournament. Then, yes, we'll see after that. Butt first, just looking at Paris.
[0:25:04] BW: That's great, and that's a good place to leave it. Well, Jackie Dubrovich, thank you so much for joining me, and sharing some of your stories and experiences. Have fun the rest of this week in Phoenix, and then good luck in Milan and beyond.
[0:25:16] JD: Thanks for having me.
[0:25:18] BW: Thanks.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:25:19] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the Strip. Bye.
[END]