Eli Dershwitz is the 2023 World Champion, becoming the first American man to clinch the title in men's saber at Senior Worlds. He also had a legendary college career, with four Ivy League and two NCAA championships under his belt. And now, he's on the path to his third Olympic appearance.
Our guest is Eli Dershwitz, the 2023 World Champion who became the first American man to clinch the title in men's saber at Senior Worlds. He also had a legendary college career, with four Ivy League and two NCAA championships under his belt. And now, he's on the path to his third Olympic appearance.
EPISODE 52
[INTRO]
[0:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell, and in this show, you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in the sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. So, whether you're an Olympian or a Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:40] BW: Today, we have a trailblazer in the world of men’s sabre, a fencer who's carved his name into the USA fencing history books already. Eli Dershwitz, the 2023 World Champion, and when he won that title, he became the first American man to do so in men’s sabre at the Senior World's level. He also had a legendary college career with four Ivy League and two NCAA championships. Now, he's headed to his third Olympics. So, hello, Eli Dershwitz. Welcome.
[0:01:04] ED: Hi. Pleasure to be here. Super excited for the Paris and Olympics this summer. And now that we got our team set, just 90 more days of training, and we're ready to leave it on the strip in Paris.
[0:01:14] BW: Yes. The countdown is going and one thing that we'll talk about is that you're also coaching here at the April NAC where we're recording this. So, any screaming, beeping in the background, people shouldn't be alarmed. That's just fencing happening about 20 feet away from us.
Let's talk about how you got into fencing. We've heard the story with other fencers that there were younger sibling and followed their older sibling and that was actually the case for you, right? Your older brother, Phil, fenced at Princeton? So, what do you remember about watching him fence and how that made you want to try it?
[0:01:42] ED: Yes. The first few years he was fencing, I would come with my mom to practice to pick them up every day, and the coaches or and my coach throughout childhood would always let us like run around the dental practice, let us come down on the floor, and watch what was going on. So, definitely got a good feeling for how the club and how fencing worked from a young age. Picked it up at age nine. Then, slowly throughout the years, just kind of got a little more competitive, up to training. Got to high school, decided to focus on fencing full time, and then since then, it's just been slightly more and more and more training.
[0:02:11] BW: Yes. Obviously, that was successful for you. I want to jump straight to Milan and then we'll come back a little bit. So, last summer, people have seen the photos, they've seen the video. It was just obviously such an emotional moment for you when you realize you were the world champion. What do you remember what's going through your mind at that point on that beautiful stage in that huge venue?
[0:02:34] ED: Yes. I would say, it's a dream come true to compete in front of such an amazing crowd. President of Italy was there in the stands, screaming crowds, super loud. I was energized from the start. I had probably the toughest bracket that one could have with either like an Olympic medalist or World Champion in every round from the 32 on. So, I knew I would have to have the day of my life in order to come out on top. But I've always believed that if you find small moments of perfection and excellence in training, even if it's just one touch per day, it's a lot easier to put it all together at the right time in the big tournaments, and I'm a strong believer, and incremental progress over time. So, I'm very happy with how the training camps and the overall workload was leading up to the Milan World Championships. Just looking back, it was an exceptional day. I'm so glad that I was able to have friends, teammates there by my side, my hug with my Coach Oleg afterwards, all those pictures, it just means the world to be able to look back at that with such happiness.
[0:03:33] BW: Yes. It's such a great moment. It's never easy to win any tournament, whether it's an April NAC or World Championships, right? But for you, the path was especially difficult and you alluded to this earlier. Nobody in other parts of the bracket did you any favors by like knocking out the big names. So, in the finals, you beat the world number one and reigning European Champion, Sandro Bazadze of Georgia. In the semis, it was a world number two, three-time Olympic champion Áron Szilágyi of Hungary. In the quarterfinals, the 2019 team World Champion, Ha Han-sol from Korea. In the round of 16, the number three, Samele of Italy who was world number three at the time. In the round of 32, it was Gu from Korea. I mean, how did you not just let that be so daunting knowing that technically speaking, you were the underdog in a lot of those matches?
[0:04:20] ED: I think the big thing is knowing that you have nothing to lose. Someone had looked at my bracket from the outside and say he has no chance. It’s just tough match after a tough match after a tough match. But I think when the pressure kind of evaporates because people don't expect you to win, you can just go out there and give it your all, make sure that you trust your training, trust your discipline, and just make sure you leave all your energy, all your emotion out on the strip, and I think I did a really good job with that. My 15-14 bout with Gu in the 32 was kind of just like a stepping stone to making sure that you know the adrenaline was there all day. I had good competitive energy. I really believed that I have a good day, I can beat anyone in the world.
[0:04:57] BW: So, you were feeling some momentum as early as then being like, this might be my day. I'm feeling good out there. How do you actually translate that into results on the strip when you're like, “This might be my day.”
[0:05:09] ED: I think the number one thing is just trusting your training. Trusting that you handled your preparation for the tournament with everything you could. Good solid two weeks of camp with lessons, footwork, and competitive fencing every day, taking the time to make sure you're working on your mobility, your injury prevention, your recovery. Making sure that you're doing what you can to be mentally and emotionally stable. Then, I think it was just kind of one of those things where everything came together at the right time, and I'm hoping to have a very similar preparation process towards Paris so that when I step out onto the strip, I feel like I've done everything in my power to be ready to compete at the highest level.
[0:05:43] BW: I want to get to Paris, because I know you're laser-focused on that, and you're like, “My past wins were great. But let's focus on Paris.” But one more thing I want to point out, which is that after that win, you kind of went on the victory tour in the sense that you went to meet some young fans at Tim Morehouse Fencing Club, camps, and other places. So, what was it like knowing that you were an ambassador for Team USA, and for fencing, and getting to meet some of those fans, and relive that moment with your fans who were watching you from home, but weren't actually able to be there with you in Italy?
[0:06:15] ED: It meant the world. In a smaller sport, we don't always get the opportunity to compete in front of big crowds. Just being able to – [inaudible 0:06:21] and I both, we watched our metal rounds in front of the entire camp. Few 100 kids from all over the country, even international kids, and just being able to walk all these younger generations through what was going through my mind, how I was going throughout the tournament, and just getting to kind of reexperience that moment with the next generation. I hope it was meaningful for them. But it was super meaningful to me, just being able to kind of pass down that mentorship that I feel like I was so lucky to have all those great mentors and role models when I was a younger fencer.
[0:06:50] BW: So, you actually were watch some replays from your bouts, and kind of almost narrated over them, like a commentary, so to speak. That's really cool. What a great experience for those kids.
Okay. Before we leave Milan, we have to talk about the team event too, because you actually came home with two medals from Milan, right? And the team bronze. To an outsider, someone who hasn't been following Team USA, they might have said that was a surprise for Team USA to get a metal there. So, what was the energy? What were the dynamics like, especially in that 44-44 moment where anything could happen.
[0:07:23] ED: I would just say, in the team events right now our energy is great, the camaraderie is great, we trust each other. We're kind of in a sweet spot where nobody feels like they have to move a mountain in order for us to win. On days where I'm struggling, the other guys pick it up. On days with the other guys are struggling, I pick it up, and we really trust each other that everyone's going to do their job. The fact that a lot of us are trained together for years consistently, we really have a good brotherhood with good energy. Since Worlds last year, we've met with every World Cup so far this year, two golds, silver, and bronze.
So, I don't think other countries now are looking at us and thinking, “Oh, like this is just a lucky day, or this is out of the ordinary.” I think we've earned a lot of respect on the international stage. It's not easy outside of Europe to really earn that respect. But I think we've had great energy, great competitive spirit throughout the year, and we're just trying to kind of use that to push us forward to the next 90 days.
[0:08:15] BW: How do you train for the team event in Paris? What strategies can actually prepare you for those moments where the bright lights are at their brightest?
[0:08:25] ED: Yes. I think the number one thing is just consistency in the team events throughout the season. We don't want to have up and downs, or good one competition, bad the next, and then it's just kind of random. We're really locked in and laser-focused on just being consistent and disciplined, day in and day out. Then, that will hopefully get us to a point where we show up and we're not scared of losing, but we're prepared to win. We have a strong belief in our ability and we want to go out and do something special this summer.
[0:08:49] BW: The team itself is special because you're all Harvard guys, right? So, the squad is you, Mitchell Saron, Colin Heathcock, and Filip Dolegiewicz. I’m not sure how to pronounce his name. But it's the Harvard squad. What does it tell you about the strength of Harvard in sabre, and just Harvard in general, that all four guys are Harvard?
[0:09:07] ED: I think we've done a good job of destroying the belief that you go to Harvard to fence. It’s like the end of your athletic career, and the academics are too strong. I think we've done a good job, all of us over the years of being able to balance our athletic, our academic, and our social lives, and just being able to show that we're able to be super disciplined with our time, our practice. We're locked into practice. In other aspects of our life, we're locked in, and we're making sure that we're just discipline with our time. I'm also a strong believer in the fact that when you have a group of people training together with the belief in raising the overall level of the group, not just raising the individual level of the self that if I can make my teammates better at practice every day, they give me harder bouts, I get better. When I got better, I give them harder bouts, and it's just one of those things where the collectivism is really helpful for long-term progress for a group.
[0:09:59] BW: What's your role as the leader there? Because when you went to Rio for your first Olympics, you were the youngest member of the team USA fencing squad, right? Now, you're not the oldest, but you're the oldest of the men’s sabre guys. Has your role shifted? How are you taking on that leadership responsibility?
[0:10:15] ED: I would say, yes, emotionally and like mentally, it's kind of switched, where I'm like the older brother, kind of like mentor vibes. Physically, the back pain, definitely, I feel my age compared to these younger guys. But I would say, overall, I feel so lucky and privileged that when I was a young athlete in the sport, I was able to train, and compete, and talk with a lot of members of the Olympic team, a lot of members of the national team, they were kind and helpful and supportive to me over the years, and I just want to make sure I'm doing everything in my power to give that same energy back to the next generation. Make sure that on days that they're struggling, they feel supported and heard. On their good days, make sure I'm there to celebrate with them, and just making sure that the overall energy on our team is positive, and the trajectory is for all of us to try and compete, not only for ourselves, but for our teammates, for our clubs, for our country, all those things. I think it gives us faith in one another that we don't have to do it alone, and that win or lose, we're going to be standing behind one another.
[0:11:11] BW: Then, what about preparing them for the distractions that are going to exist in Paris and ensuring that they are both able to, your teammates, I mean, on men’s sabre, that they're able to enjoy the moment, soak it in, but also know that you're there to do a job and that there's two days of fencing that need their complete focus.
[0:11:31] ED: Yes. I would say I kind of have this reputation for being like Mr. No Fun on the team, locking myself into the hotel during tournaments and training camps and just train, sleep, train, sleep. We'll definitely take our time to meet the other Olympians, get pictures with the other stars that we've always dreamed of meeting. But when it comes to competition time, we're going to be locked in, we're going to have a long time in Paris to train, make sure that our minds and bodies are prepared for the ultimate competition.
But at the end of the day, just comes down to what we prioritize as our number one goal. We're not there as tourists, we're not there to have fun, we're there to compete and do a job. Then, four days after the opening ceremonies, we're done with individual and team event, and we have two weeks for the closing ceremony. Plenty of time to see Paris, plenty of time to see friends and family. Excuse me. But until we finished that last event touch, we've got one job and that's to prepare to win.
[0:12:17] BW: Yes. I think that's the right outlook. Then, once that last touch is done, then you can enjoy a little bit more of the experience. And for you, you've seen what a COVID Olympics looks like and what a non-COVID Olympics looks like. So, you'll be back to one where you can actually enjoy it, explore the village. What are you most looking forward to about that aspect?
[0:12:36] ED: I'm just so looking forward to having friends and family in the stands again. Rio was an amazing crowd and amazing atmosphere, having friends and family there. Tokyo was a little tough with a quiet empty stadium. So, having my family there, having my amazing girlfriend, Karen there, college friends, high school friends, teammates over the years, just knowing that they're willing to travel to France to support me and put their life on hold for a week to be there. I'm going to do everything in my power to give them a good show.
[0:13:02] BW: I was recently with you at the Team USA Media Summit, where you got to meet like 100 different journalists and share your story and share the story of fencing, really too. What was that experience like for you getting to raise the profile of fencing and of Eli Dershwitz.
[0:13:17] ED: It was just an all-around incredible experience. I don't know exactly how many Olympic sports there are. But whether there were 40 or 50 Olympic sports for team USA represented there, to be one of the two fencers heading to the Olympics that got to be in this amazing environment in New York City, with all these amazing athletes in different sports together. It felt really cool. A lot of these other sports get global attention and national attention on a regular basis. So, for fencing, to be able to be rising to that media attention level, really kind of makes a lot of the hard work and tough days, and grinding in the dark, it makes it worth it.
[0:13:51] BW: In addition to talking about your story and explaining fencing to people who didn't understand it. You also made a shout-out that you were hoping to meet a certain basketball player while you're while you're in Paris, if possible. Tell us what that was because I want to put it out into the universe as much as we can, so it'll happen.
[0:14:08] ED: Yes. I'm a huge Boston Celtics fan, diehard Boston sports fan overall. So, I'm bringing my Jason Tatum jersey to the Olympics. If I got to meet him, that would be like a dream come true. I've watched almost every Celtics game throughout the last year. I think this is their year to win it all. If post-NBA championship, I can meet them in the village, that would just be absolutely incredible.
[0:14:29] BW: Between NBA championship and him winning a gold medal for Team USA, the timing would be perfect. So, shifting gears a little bit. We mentioned this in the intro that you're not just to train with your teammates, but also to coach, and so you're a coach at Tim Morehouse Fencing Club. You have coached at Harvard and now you're a coach at NYU, where you also were able to train with Aleks Ochocki, who is your coach as well. So, what drives you to want to add that additional responsibility onto your plate?
[0:14:57] ED: I've always loved coaching. I've always loved teaching. Just passing down the knowledge to the next generation has always been super meaningful for me. Just being locked into fencing all day, whether it's fencing or coaching, and just being like, extremely attentive to the details involved, the footwork, slowing down the sport a little bit with the younger kids, and just making sure that my mind is locked in pretty consistently, I felt has been very beneficial for my overall game. It's a really beautiful feeling, seeing the next generation come up be successful on the international stage, to realize that USA fencing is now like a powerhouse, internationally in sabre and other weapons. It's just a beautiful thing to see.
I remember when I was a young fencer, men’s sabre was good, but they weren't a global powerhouse. They weren't like consistently the best. They had times where they were great. They had times where they were not so great. And just trying to push the level on the domestic circuit to a point where pretty consistently, they're going to Cadet Junior Worlds and Senior Worlds and just having the ability to compete at the highest level. It really shows how far as a federation that our country has come in fencing.
[0:15:57] BW: Yes. I mean, somewhere in this Salt Lake Convention Center is a 2028, 2032 Olympian, right? That's kind of exciting to think about that, that there's one here right now who's working their way up. Shifting gears a little bit, your physical training is super impressive and obviously effective. But can we talk about the mental side and how you lock in, in that aspect? How you make sure that your head is right, each time you go out there and fence?
[0:16:25] ED: Yes. I think recently, started to work with a professional sports psychologist again, and just making sure that I'm in control over my thoughts, my disappointments, my struggles, my nervousness, and just finding a way to control all that with different breathing exercises and meditation has been super helpful for me to be able to control my temper at practice, control my emotions and tournaments throughout the year. I think it just like helps building an overall general athlete, pursuit of excellence type of strategy. Definitely, when I was younger, I focused more on the physical aspect of the sport and just training until I couldn't walk. I think now, I have a much more well-rounded approach, top of the physical necessities of training, just making sure that I'm actually thinking about my nutrition, my hydration, my recovery, my sleep. Making sure that I'm ready to train at a high level every day, and just making sure that I'm not letting my head prevent me from accomplishing what I want to do on the strip.
[0:17:18] BW: Then, as you mentioned, 90 days, three months until Paris when we're recording this. How do you make sure that you're peaking at the right time, knowing that you even have more competitions between now and then that will determine your seeding and at the Olympics, so you can't just coast to the end either?
[0:17:36] ED: I would say quite honestly, it's kind of impossible to pick the exact moment when you're going to peak like physically, mentally and emotionally. But the best thing that we can do is just be super consistent in everything we do, making sure that we're analyzing every aspect of strategy of the sport to optimize performance at the end, and just making sure that we don't burn out, making sure that the energy and hunger is still there every day in training, and as the countdown gets closer and closer and closer, we don't stray from our process that has been very successful over the last few years.
[0:18:05] BW: Yes. Let's talk about your legacy that you want to leave behind when you do decide to just move to coaching full time or whatever that is, whenever that is. Obviously, you're still writing your legacy and Paris will be an important chapter in that. But if you look back now, what do you want people to say about Eli Dershwitz and his fencing?
[0:18:23] ED: I would hope that people would appreciate the consistency and longevity of my international career. What is important to me that people remember me as competitive and overall, a good athlete. More importantly than that, I hope that people would remember and think about me as somebody who wasn't only concerned with my individual performance, but also took the time during day one when I wasn't competing, because I had a bye into the 64, to be with the pools, with the other people, make sure that I'm supporting the people that need it, and making sure that I'm taking the time and the effort to help those that have helped me over the years, who supported me, and just making sure that everyone feels like they have a legitimate shot at getting to the next level because they have older generations looking out for them.
[0:19:07] BW: Yes. I've noticed that at tournaments when I see photos from these international tournaments come in, BT will send in his photos and it's day one, and there in the background is Eli, in his team USA warm-ups, and sometimes even in the box, coaching your teammates. Some people would say, should you not be using that time to rest or train. Why is that so important to you that you're out there supporting the other 11 guys, let's say, that are at a World Cup with you?
[0:19:33] ED: I would say that apart from Daryl who's a few years older than me, and did that for me when I was younger in fencing pools, pretty much everyone else on the circuit I've grown up with within a few years of me. I've seen them compete from a very young age moving up through the cadet junior and senior circuit. Just having that camaraderie and friendship with your teammates, it makes it very easy to spend the time and energy, supporting them. It doesn't feel like a chore. It doesn't feel like something that is wasted energy. It really gets me motivated, it gets me excited seeing them win.
I think that doing that for them, I don't expect them to do it for me as like a quid pro quo. But I know that because of the friendship that we have as a team, that we're all going to be there to support each other on day two.
[0:20:12] BW: Yes. It probably helps you in the team event as well, in a way, right? Just understanding your teammates and how they fence, like sitting there and helping coach, let's say, Mitchell, as he's going through [inaudible 0:20:24]. Lastly, what's your goal for Paris? And you can answer that however you want. Just have a good time, win a gold medal, whatever you want to say.
[0:20:33] ED: I would say like, frankly, like my goal is to come up with an Olympic medal. My third Olympics. I've underperformed at the last two compared to where I think I could be. But I'm trying not to think about expectations like I did last year. I'm not trying to think about, “Oh, because I did this in the past, I should be doing this, I should be medal-ling.” I just want to make sure I'm spending all of my mental and physical energy on like the best preparation that I can possibly have. Making sure that when I get there, I'm ready to pour my heart out on the strip, fight for every touch, and just make sure that I can come home with no regrets, without thinking about what if this happens? What if I lose here? What if I run into this person? Those variables are out of my control. So, while I can't control what thoughts come into my head, I can do my best to remove the obstacles that are not in my control, and just focus on the tangible things that I can do to prepare myself to the best of my ability.
[0:21:21] BW: I think that's great advice, whether we're talking about the Olympics, or a NAC, or regional, or local tournament, I think that's well said. Well, Eli, congrats on everything. Good luck this summer. Also, good luck here with your coaching. I know that's important to you as well. So, great job. Thank you.
[0:21:36] ED: Thank you very much. It means a lot.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:21:38] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the Strip. Bye.
[END]