Today we're diving into the mental side of the sport, focusing on a common yet often overlooked struggle: impostor syndrome. We're thrilled to welcome Dr. Lisa Orbe-Austin, a licensed psychologist and renowned executive coach, who's made tremendous strides in tackling impostor syndrome, diversity, equity and inclusion, and effective communication within various organizations and educational institutions.
Today we're diving into the mental side of the sport, focusing on a common yet often overlooked struggle: impostor syndrome.
We're thrilled to welcome Dr. Lisa Orbe-Austin, a licensed psychologist and renowned executive coach, who's made tremendous strides in tackling impostor syndrome, diversity, equity and inclusion, and effective communication within various organizations and educational institutions.
The author of two insightful books, 'Own Your Greatness' and 'Your Unstoppable Greatness,' she’s an expert in overcoming impostor syndrome and navigating toxic or unsupportive work cultures.
In addition to her professional accomplishments, Dr. Orbe-Austin also brings a unique perspective to our discussion today - she's a parent to two budding fencers. Let's delve into her rich professional insights and her firsthand experiences from the fencing world.
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First to 15: The Official Podcast of USA Fencing
Host: Bryan Wendell
Cover art: Manna Creations
Theme music: Brian Sanyshyn
EPISODE 30
[INTRO]
[00:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell. In this show, you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in the sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. So whether you're an Olympian or a Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:00:40] BW: Today, we're diving into the mental side of the sport, focusing on a common yet often overlooked struggle, impostor syndrome. We're thrilled to welcome Dr. Lisa Orbé-Austin, a licensed psychologist and renowned executive coach who's made tremendous strides in tackling impostor syndrome; diversity, equity, and inclusion; and effective communication within various organizations and educational institutions.
The author of two insightful books, Own Your Greatness and Your Unstoppable Greatness, she's an expert in overcoming impostor syndrome and navigating toxic or unsupportive work cultures. In addition to her professional accomplishments, Dr. Orbé-Austin also brings a unique perspective to our discussion today. She's the parent of two budding fencers. So let's delve into her professional insights and her first-hand experiences from the fencing world.
Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Orbé-Austin.
[00:01:30] LOA: Thank you so much for having me, Bryan.
[00:01:31] BB: So this is great, and we hear this term impostor syndrome a lot. I'd love to know your definition of it to kind of set the stage and just how prevalent it is nationwide.
[00:01:43] LOA: Yes. So the experience of impostor syndrome is when you are competent, credentialed, experienced, qualified, but yet you haven't internalized that. As a result of not internalizing that, you either overwork or self-sabotage to deal with the performance anxiety. As a result of that, you then tend to kind of not internalize positive feedback, tend to over-focus on negative feedback, and tend to get burnt out pretty significantly. So it can kind of lead to a cycle of repeating that over and over again.
[00:02:13] BW: Certainly, that's something we hear about in terms of workplaces. Individuals who maybe don't even apply for a job that they would be qualified for because they're feeling that impostor syndrome you describe. I'm wondering how and whether it manifests in the world of sports and especially fencing.
[00:02:29] LOA: Yes. It's a very common experience. About 70% of people experience it, and I've actually seen it a lot in fencing because I'm a fencing parent. I talk a lot to the coaches, and they talk to me about the concept of impostor phenomenon and how it showed up in their fencing. So they've talked about this experience of feeling like they're not good enough. They are unqualified. They are – it's all been a fluke. It's all been a mistake. It's all been luck or a series of luck. Think lucky things for them.
Then it's been really hard to internalize things like being Olympians and world champions and national champions. These things, while they are concrete and real, have been tough for them to actually take in sometimes.
[00:03:05] BW: Fencing is a sport where you do get that instant feedback in the sense that you might lose a pool bout and have to bounce back from that or lose a tough DE bout and have to deal with that until your next tournament. Are there strategies for managing this phenomenon?
[00:03:22] LOA: Yes. So there are a lot of research strategies around dealing with it. One of the things that I think for fencers that I've seen a lot that I've tried to help some of the fencers deal with is the internalization of positive feedback. So I think in fencing, where it's often said you lose more than you win, they're usually really good at dealing with and accommodating for negative feedback and learning from that.
But I think the positive feedback is a struggle. Oftentimes, it's a belief that like taking that in makes you softer or less ambitious or less kind of dedicated to your training. I think it actually is a really helpful thing to be able to recognize your accomplishment, your win, that moment. You talk about sort of saying like when somebody gives you a positive compliment, not sort of immediately going to, “Well, I didn't do this, and I didn't do that and I –” No, this result wasn't as good as the last one. Really just being able to say thank you, I appreciate that, and really working on internalizing the positive things that have come from that particular win. There are always things to gain from even a tough loss.
[00:04:19] BW: Then how about just the feeling of maybe I don't belong here when you look at the pool in a tournament? Let's say you're looking and seeing that there is an Olympian who's competing in the same event as you or someone that's beaten you every single tournament. You just can't seem to get past that person. How do you overcome that feeling of maybe I'm not good enough to even be at this tournament?
[00:04:40] LOA: Yes. I think if you're there, you're qualified. There are very specific rules about even being able to participate in certain levels of the sport, so to really remind yourself that you are there for a reason. [inaudible 00:04:51] who said she had impostor syndrome, especially when she joined the Supreme Court has said like, “You're there for a reason. You're there to do something that's unique to you.” Figuring out what you're there to do that's unique to you is your special moment. It may not be even the whole thing. It might be something tiny or little or something new. But I think really figuring out why you're there that's unique to you is important.
[00:05:12] BW: Yes, and owning your greatness, like you say in your book. That brings me to a question about those practical tools and some of which you've covered in your books. What are some strategies? I would be interested to know, both from a professional side and from an athletic side, a fencing side, to overcome that feeling.
[00:05:29] LOA: So I think that the first piece is really being able to be able to say, “I think I'm struggling with this,” and be able to identify it. Then we talk about understanding the origins of it. So a lot of the origins come from early childhood and family dynamics to being able to identify what those specific ones are. So one of them is, typically, you were labeled either this intelligent one, the hard-working one, or the one who is the survivor and really being able to acknowledge that you're more than that, that that is more than just this narrow role that you got put into.
Being able to kind of notice automatic negative thoughts that are coming into your mind like, “I don't belong in this pool. There are qualified people here that are way [inaudible 00:06:04].” Being able to actually recognize that's an automatic negative thought. I actually belong here. I wouldn't be here. How do I actually have a rational response to that automatic negative thought that actually helps me be present and in my skin in this moment? So also being able to not do things alone.
Fencing, while we do work in communities, it's a very solitary sport but really learning how to have a team around you. Not just your coaches but people who are really kind of strategically get what you're doing and want to support you holistically. Also being able to kind of have a really good self-care plan. Oftentimes, athletics can be really tough on the body, on the mind. You have to have things going on in your life that really structure self-care as foundational. Things like having a therapist, things like really taking care of your body, taking care of your mind significantly, doing mindfulness activities. All of these things become a part of being foundational.
Because when we have impostor syndrome, we're really bad at taking care of ourselves. We're good at achieving the goal, but we're very bad at really taking care of ourselves fundamentally. So these are some of the things there. In the book, there's like nine different interventions that the research has shown to be significant. But those are some of the things you can do. They're very concrete and very effective.
[00:07:14] BW: Yes. I think that's great. I'd love to know if you're willing to share what the experience has been like with your own daughters and their fencing journey and maybe how your expertise as a psychologist has helped maybe redirect them when maybe they're feeling a little bit of what we're describing here.
[00:07:30] LOA: Yes. I think it's been really interesting. My daughters are very different. I think partially it's about their trajectory in this support. But I think both of them took a break during the pandemic, and one of them came out of the pandemic 13, and the other one came out 10. So those are very different age classes in fencing. One of them has been doing really, really well, and the other one's struggling.
So it's really been very important to me as a psychologist, as a parent to really give them separate experiences for them to have their own trajectories of what they are aiming toward, and they are very different. So my little one might be aiming for a medal. My other one is trying to win a pool bout. Just win one. It took her all season to win one pool bout. That process of really allowing her to have that as a goal that was sufficient was really difficult, especially if she's in a place where people are really competitive, doing well, and she hasn't won.
I think it was really about helping her to recognize that's her goal, that's what she's aiming for, and how do we help her get there, and how do we help her not feel shame for the struggle that she's having to get to this place, and really allow her to feel belonging in a sport that's super competitive when you cannot feel belonging as a result of not doing well. So that has been our struggle and what we've been trying to help her do and celebrate. Every time, you think every extra point she got, every time she got close. She finally just won a pool bout on Sunday, and she had Nzingha there and Iman there and Adam, her coach, there. They were all like screaming as if she won the best thing ever. It was just one-pool about, 3-2. But she was thrilled.
[00:09:02] BW: That’s awesome.
[00:09:01] LOA: So that's what I'm focusing. The sport’s important to me. But their well-being and their psychological safety, that's probably a heck of a lot more important to me. So I'm always thinking about what's happening around that, especially given what I do.
[00:09:15] BW: Yes, of course. There's an important reminder there that if you have multiple children or if you're a coach with multiple students, there's no one-size-fits-all, right? So if you think that you're going to be able to copy and paste from one to the next, that's probably not effective, right?
[00:09:31] LOA: Yes, it isn't because they're having such different – they're different people. They're having such different experiences. So it's so important that it's a unique experience for each of them, which is hard as a parent to kind of give them each a unique experience and celebrate one in one way, celebrate the other in another way. One’s have a great time. The other one's really down. How do you meet both of them where they are at? That's really hard.
[00:09:52] BW: You've navigated a lot of different organizational cultures as an executive coach. So I'm curious if you're drawing on that skill, how would you describe the culture at a fencing tournament at your club, at the tournaments you’ve been to?
[00:10:06] LOA: It’s super competitive. So I would compare it to like an ultracompetitive work environment like the sciences or tech or – it's very kind of competitive in some ways in a very positive way, in some ways in a troubling way, as all kind of competitive environments can get. So I think that that piece has been hard for me as a psychologist to watch some of the things, especially for me with parents and their children and the way that they're getting involved in the competition in a way, I think, that is unhealthy.
I think at our first regional tournament, we saw about a – it was about a 14-year-old boy crying outside of the venue, like hysterical crying. Something must bad have happened during the course of his fencing. His mom was pointing in his face saying, “The minute you started crying, you were a failure. Every time you keep crying, you're a failure.” We were heartbroken to watch this. My kids were like, “What's happening?” This is their first regional. I'm trying to explain what's happening, but I'm not doing the best of job because I don't if I understand this fully what's happening. But it wasn't the last time we saw something that terrible happen between a parent and their child. That's been a sad thing for me to watch.
[00:11:12] BW: Yes. That is difficult. I think we've all seen it. If you go to a tournament, you're going to witness that toxic culture, and it could be parents talking to other parents, parents talking to officials, which we certainly don't want to see, either talking to their own children in a demeaning way. Is there something that when you see that, are you tempted to step in and say, “Hey, listen. I'm a licensed psychologist and what you're doing –” I mean, right? What can be done?
[00:11:39] LOA: Yes. I mean, I think it's such a good question. I do feel that poll. But I also feel like I also don't want to make it worse for that child because I'm not going to be able to go home with that family and figure it out when they get home. But I don't pretend like I don't see it. I definitely make a face. I definitely make them uncomfortable to kind of do that with their kid publicly. But you don't know what they're going to do privately.
I think one of the things I would say to parents that are listening is if you find yourself overly involved, you've got to figure out what that's about. Are you trying to live through your kid? Are you really frustrated that your kid's not achieving the way that you want? Should you get support for that yourself? Because I just don't think you should be exploding upon your child in these events. If something's happening that's doing that, either both of you need to go to family therapy, or you need to be in individual.
Because I've seen – I just saw this weekend a parent throw a mask at an eight-year-old like full force. I also think as a fencing community, we need to figure out how can these parents be held accountable for what they're doing and potentially either receive some kind of like notation on their USA Fencing. But something needs to happen because also we're seeing the same – you end up in the same circuits. We're seeing the same parents do it competition after competition after competition. Each competition doesn't know what's happened in the previous one and they – something needs to happen for that child most specifically to be safe because I can't imagine if they do that in public what's happening in private.
So I do think we as a community need to start saying something or have the ability to kind of go to someone and be like, “Can you deal with that, and can something happen,” because you're often not sure who to go to.
[00:13:14] BW: I'd say from the USA Fencing perspective, as a staffer, I know we have a file, a report tool on the USA Fencing site that's intended to be used for that type of infraction. Let's call it that. Or that type of abuse that people are witnessing. But I will say we need to do a better job of promoting that that exists and encouraging individuals to use it if they're comfortable doing so.
But a form and reporting isn't going to stop everyone in every single case, obviously, even the threat of that. So are there strategies that you recommend to parents if they're feeling that in themselves? I mean, you mentioned going to therapy and kind of assessing why they might be acting in that way. Are there other tips for those parents?
[00:13:55] LOA: Yes. I mean, I think one of the things that I noticed at the first time I went to a regional, a little bit of the local but at the regional, was that I was feeling a ton of adrenaline. Maybe people can't identify it, but I was feeling a ton of like just an adrenaline. It was making me feel dysregulated. I'm a psychologist. I've been in tons of therapy. I kind of know what to do with it. But I would suggest, if you're feeling that, then you have to find some way to discharge that adrenaline in a healthy way.
For example, maybe you go for a run in the morning or go for a run after the competition because you need some way to have that out of you. Maybe you kind of find some way to kind of meditate or regulate. But you need your own self-care practices. I'm teaching my girls self-care practices about how to prepare psychologically for a tournament. I think parents need to do the same darn thing before they get on the floor too. They need to have done their work prior to coming on the floor because you can see they're dysregulated, and they're feeling a lot. I imagine. I felt it.
But the key is what we do with those feelings as adults. Then we have a lot more control over how we manage them, that it's not okay to like flip out on our kids. No matter how poorly they may be behaving, there are ways to handle it that don't require you to throw a mask at them. So I do think like it's really important for us to be really regulated so that we can help our kids be what we call co-regulated. Because if we're wildly out of control, our kids are going to guarantee be widely out of control or suppressing so hard that they can barely stand up. Yes.
[00:15:17] BW: How about the role of parents to help other parents here? So maybe if you witness something that makes you uncomfortable at a tournament that a stranger is doing, not all of us are going to go up to that person and try to intervene. But if it's someone that you're close to, another parent from your club, maybe you would feel comfortable going up and saying, “Hey listen. Is that something you would recommend, first of all? And if so, how might that conversation go?”
[00:15:39] LOA: Yes. I mean, I think if you have a relationship with someone that's a positive relationship with them, I think it's okay to be like, “How are you? Are you okay? Can I support you in any way?” Because I've seen parents actually jump in and be like, “I've got this,” and they helped take the kid while the parent takes a step away. So I think there's been lovely kinds of way to support.
Oftentimes, I don't know these parents. I see them around, but I don't know their names or anything about them. I do think it's important to find the official at the tournament and figure out who you can talk to, being like, “Hey, there's a situation. It needs to be kind of addressed.” Because they're like the official bodies that kind of know all the rules and regulations that kind of can handle this without you getting into it with somebody. Because I do think sometimes they're so dysregulated. They might also fight with you next if you don't know them, and they feel threatened by you.
I do think it's really important to kind of gauge where you're at and what the relationship is with the person and how you can support them primarily to kind of really think about like how they can be different in this moment or how they can get what they need in this moment. But I think it can't be understated how much we're going through that we need to kind of manage as parents that it doesn't get managed just by watching a tournament. It doesn't happen. You have to actually do the work to kind of get regulated.
[00:16:46] BW: So given all that you've observed and understood about the world of fencing, is there something you wish you had known before starting, like some sort of playbook that you wish had been handed to you?
[00:16:57] LOA: Do you have that playbook there?
[00:16:59] BW: Yes.
[00:17:00] LOA: I want that playbook.
[00:17:01] BW: I need to start creating that.
[00:17:02] LOA: Yes. I think, gosh, the sport is super complicated. I don't know if I had known beforehand if we would have gotten involved just between like the weapon and how to prepare the weapon and like all the different equipment and how to care for it and like all the rules. My girls are foilists, and like there's a ton of rules. I don't – I barely understand. So I do think it would have been nice to kind of like have some kind of like parental orientation about probably it needs to be stages because there's just so much to know.
But I would have loved some experience where I could have gotten an orientation to, okay, when you go to a tournament, if something happens with the weapon, here's what you do. If something happens to the equipment, here's what you do. This is what equipment check is. I have learned that trial by fire, which most of us have. I have gotten some information, and then there's always missing because it's just so vast the information. So I really wish there was a bit of a guidebook or a training. I would have gone to it if it was virtual. But I really wish I would have known more because it's been hard at some tournaments, where something has happened, like a weapon's broken.
My kid had chest plate from like before the pandemic. So it didn't have a padding on it, and they didn't notice it until she actually uncovered. We'd been to other tournaments before. Then she got dysregulated and was like, “Oh, my God,” and did really poorly in the pools after that because we did get the proper chest plate, but it took a second. So it would be lovely not to have those moments. I know you can't guarantee them completely, but just to know more would have probably been helpful at times. But it's a very detailed sport. There's a lot to know, and I don't even know if you ever know all of it like.
[00:18:35] BW: I've even heard some anecdotes about parents saying that other parents are maybe less likely to share that information that they have because they see that as a competitive edge. Well, if I'm telling people how the armory process works, then maybe that puts my child at a disadvantage, right? Which is a sad commentary, but it speaks to exactly what you're saying about the culture that we need to overcome. There's still some work to be done there, for sure.
[00:19:01] LOA: Yes. I've experienced it, like feeling like someone's sharing not all the information and finding out that someone's not sharing all the information with me. I'm not that kind of parent. I'm like I want our kids to compete upon like their skill and aptitude at this moment. If I have knowledge, I'm going to give you everything I know because it's unfair to kind of be out there wandering, not knowing.
Iris Zimmermann says this all the time and like not to weaponize knowledge in the sport, that it's really important that we – that people are out there competing on their full scale and ability and not sort of – because it creates an unlevel playing field and inequity in the sport to do that. Especially the DE&I professional, I won't participate in that. I really do want to help everyone with everything I know and let our kids compete fairly.
[00:19:40] BW: So let's flip it then. If someone comes to you and they say, “I'm thinking of getting started in fencing. My kid’s interested in it,” what's your advice for them? What kind of path do you like to walk them down?
[00:19:51] LOA: I mean, I'm very supportive of the sport. So I'm always encouraging people to consider fencing because I just think as a sport, it just has like so much value in terms of not only athletic skill but intellectual skill and emotional skill and so many different parts of the sport. So I do like tell them like it's important to find community. I think one of the things that's been incredibly important to me is to find community through our fencing clubs, through other parents, through the coaches. I found a really deep community that I really love and like abide by and I feel like stick by us. I think community is so important because this sport can be very lonely.
I also sort of say don't be afraid to ask questions. Just get in there and ask. If a club doesn't want to provide those answers or a person doesn't want to provide those answers, not the space for you. This is a space of not – this is a sport of knowledge. You have to have people around you sharing as much as they possibly can because it becomes really hard if you don't have that knowledge. So whether it's competitions and what to attend or how to attend them and all this other stuff, points and ratings and all of this stuff. So I do think it's really important to kind of be in a community that really cares about you and wants to you to do the best you can and wants to share knowledge.
I have community in my club, but I also have made friends with other parents at different tournaments. I really do look for community. It makes me happy to be a place where I can smile at people and talk to them and ask. Catch up with them and see how they're doing. Just it makes me feel – this is a very intense sport. We're traveling a lot. There's a lot we're doing with it. I also want to feel like I have a place too that I feel and that I enjoy too.
[00:21:19] BW: Yes. There should be something that the parents get out of it as well, right? I think that's maybe something we often overlook. So speaking of that, I mean you shared the lovely story about your younger daughter winning that pool bout. Are there other moments that you like to point to that say this is what makes it all worth it? There's some struggles, but this makes it worth it.
[00:21:38] LOA: I mean, I think that one was really lovely. It was like a very – a combination of an entire season. I think my oldest daughter's first medal, I think she was kind of shocked that she medaled and was really kind of – it was the first time we'd ever seen her compete, and there's just something interesting about the first time a kid ever competes and watching that moment. Even her coach was like surprised by her. They were like, “This is so interesting. I've never seen her like this.”
She just came alive in the competition and just loved – like thrived on the competition. She also has like the super grouchiest face when she competes, which is adorable because she's little. She's just mean. She's not mean as a person, but she just has this look on her face, and she's like, “It's my competition face.” Ever since she was little, she was like that. So it's fun to watch her like that. The one problem is she won't smile at a medal picture, which sucks.
[00:22:25] BW: Oh, yes.
[00:22:26] LOA: Because we don't have any fun medal pictures, but we love that. I just think they – I just love watching them compete. Win or lose, there's just something. I just really just love seeing them compete and just really test themselves and challenge themselves. I love hearing what they've learned afterwards. Oh, as a parent, I cannot recommend Iman Blow's journal that more, which is a journal out that is mind-blowingly good around sort of having them reflect on their practices, their tournaments.
It’s hard to get young kids really to kind of reflect on their learning, and like it's been really lovely to kind of have us do that because I think that's what I'm hoping that they get from this is really learning how to improve skill, to kind of develop practice habits, to kind of develop relationships and really challenge themselves to be a good learner in this process.
[00:23:14] BW: That's interesting. That’s another thing that you've brought up that I never really thought of. When you're looking back on your competition, that for a lot of people might look like, “Let's watch some videos that mom or dad took on their phone of me fencing.” But that overlooks the mental side and kind of analyzing your own feelings. So what does that conversation look like, whether it's in the car or at the airport, waiting for the plane? What does that conversation look like where you say, “Let's talk about what happened today.”?
[00:23:42] LOA: Yes. I mean, I think we are very good too about like making them meditate prior to a tournament and after a tournament. So they have like a bit of reflection process. They have what's called a post-game meditation. It actually is about sort of athletic performance and what happens afterwards. So they've had a little bit of moment to regulate because I do think it's super important to let your kid regulate before they talk about their learning.
I remember one of the first tournaments they were at, and they came home, and they were like, “I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine.” I was like, “I don't think you're fine.” I was like, “Just meditate.” We have this kind of – it's called the core meditation trainer, and we use it for them for meditating, and it takes their heart rate. Their heart rate is at 150 three hours after an event.
[00:24:22] BW: So they're still amped up.
[00:24:23] LOA: They're still amped up and when they can't sleep. But they also can't think about what they've learned because they're just too amped. So you need them to get them regulated first and get them back down to a baseline and then sort of be able to talk about – because that's when you get into the arguments, I think, with them is sort of they’re just still edgy sometimes. Like getting them to be in a regulated state before they talk to you about like what they've learned, and I think asking them sort of like what were your biggest – from us, we ask what are your biggest wins, what are the things you're working on, what are the things that were disappointing, what did you notice. We ask all kinds of really open-ended questions and also help them to document them because they don't want to write them down.
But I think it's so important for their learning to be able. We talked about that earlier about being able to internalize wins or internalize losses. Part of it is actually documenting it. So we really want to have them to have a record of it so that they can think about it too and not just tell us and then forget about it. And tell their coaches. Tell us. Tell their coaches what they learned. So like that's where we're working on that. It's not always perfect, but that's what we're working on trying to get them to articulate.
[00:25:22] BW: Now, it strikes me that some listeners might say, “Why can't just tell my child to go meditate because that's not a muscle that they've developed yet?” So how do you get to the point where you can just say it's clear that you need this right now, and this is just something that we do after a tournament? What's the path like to get there?
[00:25:42] LOA: Yes. I think it's so important to model it. So if you're not doing it, chances are they're not going to do it, and they're not going to see the value in it. So I think it's good for you to be doing too as a model. But I think too, sort of starting small, starting with something really simple, really easy. Oftentimes, it's like body meditations where they're just wiggling themselves or kind of responding to like sensations. But trying something really simple, short, and sweet, and like moving on until they develop consistency.
Once they develop consistency, like they're using it every day, then you can kind of bring it to like the more high-level tournament experiences because I do think you do not want to do meditation first time before a tournament because oftentimes, they're just too amped, and they're going to get angry. It's just going to be bad. You don't want them a negative association with meditation. But build it out outside of that and then kind of add it to a tournament because I just think it's just done us a world of good to kind of all be in a regulated state for our tournament as much as we can possibly can. It's not always perfect.
[00:26:38] BW: I love that, and I want to shift gears to another aspect of your work, which is DE&I, diversity, equity, and inclusion, and its relationship with impostor syndrome. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the intersection of those areas and if there's a fencing context that we can bring in here as well.
[00:26:56] LOA: Yes, absolutely. So I think for us, in terms of like thinking about how DE&I intersects with impostor, so we hear this a lot with impostor syndrome that people with – women experience it more than men. People of color experience it more than people who are white. This is not true. There's no data or research on that social media pop culture stuff. What we do know is that it is experienced different by different groups. So for example, with women, what we find, and this is cisgender women, that they can tend to be counterphobic. So they actually face the things that they fear. But as a result of facing the thing they fear, they're experiencing it more frequently because they're going toward the trigger more often.
Where men, what we find is they tend to kind of aim toward mastery and avoid the triggers because they don't want to feel them or deal with them. It's not true of all men. But generally, this is what the research finds. Then for people of color, what we find is that they can experience what's called the double impact of impostor syndrome, and that's when you experience impostor syndrome internally. Then you get external messages like, well, maybe you don't belong here. Maybe you're not bit enough. Maybe your access is due to your identity, which reinforce the impostor syndrome and make it harder to overcome.
What we've seen from the research is that what's most important in those situations is that community along those identity lines matters most in being able to deal with the external communications of discrimination bias. So it is really important to have community so that you are not dealing with this alone because there are really significant correlates of impostor syndrome to people of color, to women that are different from privileged groups. So everyone experiences it, but everyone may experience it differently and have different intensity.
For example, for black people, when they have impostor syndrome, they tend to have greater experiences of depression when they experience an experience of discrimination. So impostor syndrome increases the experience of depression. So there's a lot of really important things we have to deal with related to, and what I would say most of all is like develop skills to deal with it because you can overcome it, and you can deal with it. But you definitely shouldn't leave it alone because if you leave it alone, it's going to chase you no matter what award, credential, accolades you're going to get.
In terms of the intersection with fencing, I do think being one or one of very few of who you are can definitely inflame the experience of not belonging, which can affect your impostor syndrome. So I do think it's so important to have community. So for my girls, part of that is being a part of PWF and really having the Peter Westbrook Foundation as a part of their community, so they don't feel alone. Many of these tournaments, they are the only black girls or one of very few. So it's so important for them to feel like this is not the case everywhere and that they have other community that they can get support from and can understand their experiences.
[00:29:40] BW: Yes. Thanks for sharing that. I think that's such an important perspective, and it speaks to the fact that the fencing community can do more, for sure, to support our athletes. So I'd love to kind of end our conversation with some advice you might have for, with all of us listening, can do to better support the mental health of those in this community that we love.
[00:30:02] LOA: Yes. I think it's really important for this community to really be open to therapy. Not only just sports therapy but really psychological therapy to really deal with some of the difficulties of managing the sport, the difficulties of managing life, difficulties of managing competition. So I do think really being open to therapy and really finding it to be a normal part of development and getting help. Just like you would go to a PCP or a doctor, I do think that's really important.
I do think really creating more community and really leaning on and supporting community within this large sport I think is so important and finding your community and really being able to trust people that are in that community. I think also really focusing on the mental health of our children. Not just their – whether they're winning or losing. Sometimes, they're winning and not doing well psychologically. I do think it's really important for us to realize. It's not a both-and situation all the time. It can be an either/or. They can be winning and struggling, and that their winning alone is not what we're looking for. We want them holistically to be healthy human beings.
The winning matters less than whether they're okay and healthy, and they have skills, and they have tools to deal with what's happening within them. So I think that's, to me, like the most foundational thing I'm thinking about as a parent and as a psychologist. I hope others do think about their kid’s well-being, number one.
[00:31:15] BW: Yes. You've given us a lot to think about and a lot of great tools we can use. So just thank you so much. We will say if people want to hear more from Dr. Orbé-Austin, more wisdom and advice, the website is dynamictransitionsllp.com. We'll link it in the show notes and also her books. Your Unstoppable Greatness is the newest one, and the other is Own Your Greatness. We definitely appreciate you, Dr. Orbé-Austin, for taking some time to chat with us today.
[00:31:39] LOA: You're so welcome. Thank you for inviting me, Bryan.
[00:31:41] BW: This is great. Thank you so much. Take care.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[00:31:44] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or a review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the strip. Bye.
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