Today's guest is Don Anthony. Don is not just a world-class fencer who competed for Team USA at two Senior World Championships; he’s also a visionary sports executive, an entrepreneur, and a transformational leader. He’s served as President and Chair of USA Fencing, a Vice President of the FIE, and now leads The Ohio State University’s fencing program as Head Coach.
Today I have the distinct honor of speaking with one of fencing’s most impactful figures and someone who’s just been a really great person to get to know in my three years with USA Fencing. It’s Don Anthony. Donald is not just a world-class fencer who competed for Team USA at two Senior World Championships; he’s also a visionary sports executive, an entrepreneur, and a transformational leader. He’s served as President and Chair of USA Fencing, a Vice President of the FIE, and now leads The Ohio State University’s fencing program as Head Coach.
From discovering fencing at age 7 in Cleveland, to studying engineering at Princeton, to earning his MBA from the Wharton School — all while building a career that spans IBM, entrepreneurial ventures, and influential roles in the fencing world — Don’s journey is nothing short of extraordinary.
Today we have a three-part episode for you: we’ll explore his fencing journey, how he balances coaching and leadership roles, and the legacy he’s building for future generations of fencers at Ohio State.
And as we’ve been doing here in season of our show, we’ll end with five quick questions.
EPISODE 3
[INTRO]
[0:00:01] BW: Welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell, and today I am sitting here live in Cleveland with Don Anthony, who is one of the most impactful figures in fencing, and actually someone who's just been a really great person to me in my three years with USA Fencing.
Don is a world-class fencer himself. He's competed for Team USA at Senior World Championships. He's also a visionary sports executive, an entrepreneur, and a transformational leader. So, he served as President and Chair of USA Fencing. He's been a vice president of the FIE, the International Fencing Federation, and now he leads the Ohio State University as the head coach of their fencing program just a couple hours down the road.
So, Don discovered fencing at age seven, right here in Cleveland, and then studied engineering at Princeton, earned his MBA from the Wharton School, all while building a career that spans IBM, entrepreneurial ventures, and influential roles in the fencing world. So, today we've got three parts to our conversation, fencing, coaching, and leadership, and then the legacy that Don is building at Ohio State.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:05] BW: So, with that introduction out of the way, welcome Don.
[0:01:08] DA: Thank you, Bryan. That's a very kind introduction. Appreciate it.
[0:01:12] BW: Yes. Our paths have crossed quite a bit in fencing. I'm fortunate enough to say, but your fencing journey goes back well before that. So, let's start about appropriately right here in Cleveland where you were seven years old and were drawn to fencing. What was it about the sport that appealed to you at that age?
[0:01:31] DA: Well, at the time I was watching Zorro as a child telling my mom I want to learn how to do that, and no idea that that was fencing. Fortunately, my mother was a resourceful librarian. She knew what it was and found an inner-city cultural center probably two miles from here. They taught fencing, they taught acting and art and dance, ballet and all of those things and fencing was one of them.
[0:01:54] BW: Obviously, it stood out to you. When did it evolve from an after-school activity into something that you were like, “Okay, this is actually a passion of mine thinking about my own kids who are 7 and 10 and like, it's hard to get them to stick to something and I would say they maybe haven't found that passion yet.” So, what was it for you?
[0:02:13] DA: For me, it actually wasn't an after-school activity. It was a Saturday morning program.
[0:02:19] BW: Got you.
[0:02:19] DA: I remember being a kid and watching the jazz dancers come dance before we got to fence. But it was really that I just fell in love with the sport. I was fortunate I fenced from 7 to 11. And then my family moved to Cincinnati. My father got a promotion with The Kroger Company. They didn't have any youth activity for kids. So, I didn't fence for six years. Then I got to Princeton and that's when I restarted my fencing career.
[0:02:46] BW: Interesting. So, there was that pause there and obviously, it didn't negatively affect your fencing?
[0:02:53] DA: In some ways, I find that it was probably the best thing that ever happened, because I played football, basketball, ran track, I played tennis. One year I grew six inches. I was on the men's gymnastics team, and I studied martial arts. So, from that standpoint, I think it really prepared me to come back to fencing. Then, as my friends used to say, I had my fencing equipment, I'd take them downstairs, and I'd show them how to fence and then beat up on them. So, I got a chance to do a little fencing, not just at a very high level.
[0:03:26] BW: Yes. So, obviously, something that your own, and we're going to get to Ohio State a little bit later, but something that your own student athletes would deal with is balancing athletics and academics, and especially at a place like Princeton with great academics and Ohio State, same thing. So, what did you carry forward from that experience as something that you can pass along to your own student athletes?
[0:03:49] DA: I think the most important thing is you have to be passionate about what you do. I was very focused most of the time when I wasn't distracted. I remember one year I had a girlfriend at Columbia, Barnard, first semester I forgot that I went to Princeton. Outside of that one semester, I had a very structured, very disciplined, and I think that's the reason why you find that corporations look for student athletes, because if you're going to do those things you have to have structure and discipline in your life. My life was get up in the morning, take a long walk to the engineering quadrangle, spend the hours there, three o'clock, go to practice. After that, come back have dinner, go back to the engineering quadrangle and study.
[0:04:32] BW: Yes. I mean, it sounds a lot like what we hear today, that you have to like, although back then it wouldn't have been in a Google calendar, but still just like having to plan out your entire day down to the minute. So, you talked about recruiters and corporations, liking student-athletes. What got you to IBM? Talk about that transition from college into the working life.
[0:04:54] DA: So, I actually, my senior year in the Easterns, I sprained my ankle severely to the point they wanted me to pull out of the competition. I didn't. Qualified from the regions, went to the NCAAs, and thought that was pretty much the end of the career because I was barely able to compete. I got recruited off campus. I was an engineer. I went into a marketing and sales, large systems marketing and sales group in Manhattan. I didn't think of fencing, but Peter Westbrook and I worked three blocks from each other. We were out at lunch. Pete said, “Hey, look, come on back because it's lonely.” At that time, he was the only African-American sabre fencer on the national team.
So, 1980, I started again and 16 years later, I stayed there. But it was really because I was an engineer that IBM came and I was able to get what was called a systems engineering position in a marketing group. So, for me, it was perfect because I had the opportunity to get what was considered, basically, a first year of business school training through that program. And it also allowed me to compete.
[0:05:56] BW: Yes. So, we hear that sometimes like from people after college that they have to, from fencers I should say, after college, they have to choose between a career or continuing to compete for one because it's an expensive sport, right? So, how were you able to do that? How were you able to swing being successful in your career while still being an elite fencer at the senior level?
[0:06:18] DA: It was not always easy. The first three years were actually pretty good. 1983, I had a manager that really had a hard time with the fact that I was able to do both well. That was not because I wasn't performing. So, that year, I took a leave of absence. It was for the Pan American in the ‘84 Olympics. Then I came back and I was able to rebuild my professional reputation, was able to continue to compete. Then I went to business school. When I came back from that, that was where the point where I was on the world team in ‘89 and I was coming into 10 years. I had an MBA, but I was told that, as long as you keep competing and you're doing this, you're never going to go any further as far as management in your professional ranks within the corporation, even though they –
[0:07:07] BW: Because of the travel or what was that?
[0:07:09] DA: They told me I could fence as long as I wanted, as much as I wanted, they supported it. It was because it didn't feel as though I was committed professionally.
[0:07:17] BW: Interesting.
[0:07:18] DA: As much as I was committed to my sport.
[0:07:20] BW: I wonder how we break that cycle with, I mean, more success stories like you, I guess, helps, right? People who have demonstrated they can do it all, could probably spent a whole episode on that. But I do want to go back to, you mentioned Peter Westbrook and you've been a founding member of organizations like the Peter Westbrook Foundation that try to bring more underserved youth, more African-American youth into fencing. So, why is that a passion for you to open those doors to more people, the legacy that people like you and Peter Westbrook have created? Why is that a passion for you?
[0:07:55] DA: I feel as though we have such a great sport that gives you so many benefits. I can't, between the life discipline, the travel, the people you meet, the access you have to things that other people don't have without the sport, I just want to make the sport accessible to a wide range. That's either from the actual participation. I find, because there's a joke about what the FIE stands for, not the Fédération Internationale d'Escrime, but fencing is expensive.
So, if we don't have the resources to expose those who may not have either direct access because they don't live in a place where fencing is, or they don't have the resources to be able to participate in our sport, I think these are necessary things, whether it's through the Peter Westbrook Foundation, which I'm very honored to have and a part of that initiative starting and it was sort of funny because the first class, we had been advertising six children showed up. Those children were Keith and Erinn Smart, my daughter and her girlfriend who were six or seven at the time and two other children that we don't know. But we were like, “Okay, I don't know if this is going to be a good idea or not.”
Well, we decided to do it for one more week. And that next week, for whatever reason, And we had, I felt like it was 100 kids, but they say it was probably more like 50. But that's still a really good turning point. Now, for the Saturday morning, Peter Westbrook class, there is a waiting list. Typically, the first Saturday, there are 150 to 200 kids trying to get into that program.
[0:09:29] BW: That's so great.
[0:09:29] DA: Then, when I moved out of New York City, I wanted to also do that. I had a program in Cincinnati with the Cincinnati Metropolitan Housing Authority and then I was actively involved with Arnold Schwarzenegger's after-school program in Columbus for years where I would do a program in the inner city of Columbus where it was just one of those things where you were able to let disadvantaged youth. And then the other thing that I always found in just where all the homeschool kids that came for the program because that was their way of having that sport activity.
So, being able to make that, I want our sport to be as visible and accessible and be able to be known by as many people as possible.
[0:10:11] BW: Yes, I love that. And because of those efforts, you've been like an inspiration to a lot of young fencers in really all three areas of fencing that you're involved in, USA fencing, Ohio State, and the FIE. But was there someone who was a big influence on you as a fencer? Who is that person that you point to and say they were who inspired me?
[0:10:33] DA: It depends on what part of my life. I remember when I was probably 9 to 12 reading about Uriah Jones, Ed Ballinger, Peter Westbrook, Nicky Franke, Ruth white, these were the first African-American fencers that Sports Illustrated, did articles on Tyrone Simmons. Those were the people who were like, “Oh, I can do this.”
[0:11:00] BW: People who look like me are out there winning.
[0:11:02] DA: People who look like me are out there winning, top of the game. Then I would say, later, I mean, of course, Peter has been a friend and an inspiration just being able to see what he did. But I always call Chaba Pallaghy my godfather of fencing, who has been very instrumental in so many ways. And as he would say, I'm one of his sons, Peter, Russell Wilson, we're his sons. And, you know, Chaba, he was a vice president of the International Federation. I didn't even understand what that meant at the time and the power that he had and how he used it to be able to help us grow.
But then when I moved to Columbus, He called me and said, “Hey, look, I need you to go and help Charlotte Remenyik, who was the head coach then, help her with her sabre program.” Because of that advice or that being told, “Actually, go do this.” “Yes, sir, I will.” Here's your new challenge. That was 1997. I was involved in that program and helped them find Vladimir Nazlymov, my predecessor, when she left and helped him help that program grow. Then when he retired, that's where I ended up here.
So, people like that have, and there are a lot of other people along the way that within the sport have not only guided me. Carla-Mae Richards is one of those –
[0:12:22] BW: We just lost her.
[0:12:23] DA: We just lost – and Carla, what she would always say, first of all, she always looked after me. She would give me a hard time because I would be doing all this stuff, “Oh, I forgot to send an entry.” Down. But she would always say, “I know how your life is, by the way, you're fencing.” If I wasn't fencing, she would say, “So, what's going on with you?”
[0:12:44] BW: She could see that.
[0:12:46] DA: She could see that because fencing is, I always say, it's like an x-ray machine. If there's something about your life that's not right, it's going to show up in some way when you're competing. You'll be lack of focus, a lack of concentration, too emotional, whatever that is, it will show up.
[0:13:01] BW: That's interesting. You obviously have been on a lot of different roles with USA Fencing, but I want to talk about your time as president and chair and eight years working with people like Carla-Mae in leadership positions. What do you consider your biggest accomplishment during that 10 years, something that you're most proud of?
[0:13:21] DA: I would say my biggest accomplishment was taking a board that could not understand the concept of collaborate or cooperate to being able to have a highly –
[0:13:33] BW: Which a lot of boards have that, right? In every sport.
[0:13:34] DA: In every sport. But being able to take that board and make it a professional board and understanding that, because a lot of the people who come from fencing and they would be having battles about competitions that happened a million years ago or some intransigence. But saying, “Hey, leave the weapons on the outside of the world. Let's come together and see what we can do to focus to make sure we have a plan.” And the strategic planning process building that board to the point where it was a very collaborative and it was a very effective board. I mean we grew the organization to the 40,000, we lost a lot of that. We went from 1.5 million in the red when I came in, hadn't had to clean out it for three years to not only having clean audits, but also getting out of the debt, but on the path to the $12, $16 million organization that we are now.
[0:14:26] BW: Yes. When you look around at March NAC, for example, one of our biggest tournaments, it's probably got to feel pretty good knowing that you had a hand in building this structure.
[0:14:36] DA: It feels good to know that you put the organization on the right track. And then the other piece of really, I mean, at the time we were not respected by the International Federation, really getting to the point where the FIE takes USA fencing as a major fencing federation as we are. We also didn't have the results that we had back then.
[0:14:55] BW: Those helped too, right?
[0:14:56] DA: Yes. I mean, the first male world champion was Miles Chamley-Watson. I took the presidency in 2012. He won in 2013. And the rest has just been a progression of success.
[0:15:09] BW: Yes. Now, we’re expecting medals when we go to world championships in the Olympics.
[0:15:13] DA: Oh, well, we finished second in the Olympics. So, I mean, now we've set that bar really high.
[0:15:19] BW: So, where do you see room for growth internationally? Let's talk about the FIE and your work with the FIE, it's interesting you talked about seeing Chaba as the vice president and not knowing what that was and then you became a vice president of the FIE which had to have been a pretty surreal moment for you at the time. But how do we grow internationally and grow the sport from the FIE level?
[0:15:40] DA: I think the biggest thing is the FIE has to make it a priority where right now and I say the same thing with USA Fencing, we have grown the sport significantly. You asked me what my accomplishment, the one thing I wasn't able to accomplish was to be able to get the media and the promotion and the marketing side. That's a big part of it because of the resources. At the FIE level, it has to be where the resources are allocated or available because right now, with the current situation, the International Federation, there are limited resources, but they have to be put in a way where we can get the kinds of visibility internationally. We have the growth, we have 155-member countries, federations, but it's now taking that foundation and building on it so that we create our messaging, our visibility, our product, that's a world product that people say, “Oh, I want to follow that. I want to be there.” And giving them the information in a format that they can easily digest it.
So, those are the kinds of things we're working on. For this quad going in the LA 2028, my assignment is working with the Promotion Communication and Marketing Committee. It's always been my goal, and this is my opportunity to try to work on that. But I think that's what the International Federation has to do for us to be able have that global property, sports property that I think we're more than capable of.
[0:17:10] BW: It's interesting too, the popularity of fencing in different countries and comparing it to our own. I've been lucky enough to travel a little bit for fencing in Italy, in France, in Heidenheim, Germany. I'm seeing billboards that have fencing and it's on TV there. And obviously, we don't have that here. I admit that part of this is on me as the communications guy for USA Fencing to do some of this. But just generally speaking, what's it going to take to bring fencing's level of popularity up in the US?
[0:17:39] DA: I think it's to a great extent just resources. So, let's look at the countries you mentioned and the others I would add would be Hungary when Russia was active, of course, and Russia. But these countries have a long history of fencing. I mean, when I was competing in the eighties behind the Iron Curtain in Budapest or Moscow, there was television covering those events. So, that's not something new for them. They have the capability, they have the resources, they know how to present the sport.
I think what's going to have to happen in the US is, one, we have to be able to have the resources to do the television broadcast in the way – and package it. I mean, you look at, I think one of the best events that I've been to is the Sabre Tournament in Harlingen.
[0:18:32] BW: They do that really well.
[0:18:33] DA: It's a production. It's sort of the same way I feel about hockey. I don't watch hockey until – I love to go to a hockey game. Because it's an experience, it's entertainment, it's fun. We have to do that. I find that even within the FIE and USA fencing, especially since our events have gotten so big, we are more focused on what I would call the manufacturing process, getting the event done, getting the results, putting as opposed to taking that from that next level into the presentation with the pomp and circumstance.
I mean, you saw Paris. My wife, she said, “You've been trying to get a presentation of what your vision was for the sport, well you finally got it.”
[0:19:17] BW: Yes. Just go to the NBC Olympics page and watch that, and there it is.
[0:19:21] DA: That's it. And I feel like that's the model for going forward. No, you can't create being in the Grand Palais. But what you can do, and someone was just saying, the World Championships in Wuxi. They did a whole thing with the floor being completely digital being completely digital and carrying images.
[0:19:40] BW: I think I saw a video of that, yes. David Blake might have shown you that.
[0:19:41] DA: It's pretty damn cool.
[0:19:43] BW: That's cool.
[0:19:43] DA: So, I think what it takes now is the resources, the financial resources for it first. And then I think the other part of it is the creativity of how do we do this in a way that will attract a new audience. We do fencing for fencers. Let's do fencing for people who've never seen our sport.
[0:20:03] BW: I think that's really well said. So, let's move on to Ohio State and collegiate fencing. You took the reins at Ohio State and have led the Buckeyes since, was it 2018?
[0:20:14] DA: 2018.
[0:20:15] BW: So, a lot of success there. Let's talk first about your coaching philosophy. When you're making a pitch to a potential recruit and want to explain what kind of coach you are and what kind of culture you've been building at Ohio State. What's your elevator pitch for them?
[0:20:32] DA: So, I will say my coaching philosophy, I'm a head coach. As a head coach, I use the same as the athletic director who hired me, Gene Smith, who was the Dean of Athletic Directors, just retired last year, said, “I need you to –” because the previous head coach, Vladimir Nazlymov was one of the best fencers in the world, best personal training coaches in the world. I'm like, “I'm not that.” He said, “I need you to be the CEO of my fencing program.”
So, I approach it the same way I've done every other business that I've touched in, as well as my consulting. I hire the best coaches possible for your individual training. I give them the resources that they need to be successful and I give you the resources to be successful. I support you in any way that I can and then I try to get out of the way so you can be successful. I create a culture that is family oriented where you've spent four years at Ohio State. My expectation is that you've created relationships with your teammates that will last for life because you want it to be there. You've bought into the same concepts. You share the same values and you will want to be part, that you will want them to be part of your life and you want to be part of theirs.
[0:21:41] BW: That's great. I know that you lived that too. I see you at these tournaments and, students will come up to you, former teammates of your own will come up to you, and it's clear that you have created that culture. So, let's talk about motivating college students because these are student athletes who are juggling classes, competitions, some of them are also competing internationally, separate from Ohio State, working, whether they're international fencers or representing Team USA. So, how do you keep everybody united and motivated when there's just so much going on in the lives of these student athletes?
[0:22:18] DA: I think the first thing, motivation depends on what you're motivating them for.
[0:22:23] BW: Got it. Okay.
[0:22:24] DA: So, I first of all have to make sure that everybody's on the same page that your primary job is to be a student athlete, student first, and then you get to be an athlete. Within that context, I have athletes that would fence all day, all night, and their academics are, “Well, do I have to?” I have other athletes that are so focused on their academics that they have a hard time balancing the amount of time that they have to put into their training so it goes across the spectrum.
I think the thing that I really appreciate about Ohio State and it's not about motivation because we don't keep people on our team that are motivated.
[0:23:07] BW: Makes sense.
[0:23:08] DA: We don't have that luxury.
[0:23:09] BW: So, that's a given, in other words.
[0:23:11] DA: We're high-performing, very professional program. But the benefit that comes with that is we have SASS, which is Student Athletic Support Service. They provide tutoring, they provide academic coaching, they help you with everything that you need to be successful academically. We have an athletic advisor that is on top of the academic advisor that you get from the university. So, they have all of that. Then they have –
[0:23:36] BW: As student athletes, they get the resources that a football player would get in other words.
[0:23:40] DA: The exact same resources. They have the same. All the student athletes at Ohio State have early registration. You get to register for your classes so you get the classes that you want before everyone else so you can have and work around your practice schedule.
[0:23:55] BW: Makes sense. Yes.
[0:23:55] DA: It doesn't work after your sophomore or junior year because you have to take the courses that when they're offered because for your major. But at least when you start off, you get all of those resources. We have study tables. I mean, all of those things come from the academic standpoint. And then from the other standpoint, I mean, you get athletic training, strength and conditioning, you get more gear than you know what to do with.
[0:24:19] BW: I see some of these videos of NCAA fencers showing off their gear, and I was like, “Man, I should not have done journalism. I should have tried for something else in college.” You didn't get like a journalism t-shirt. Let's just say that.
[0:24:31] DA: When I was fencing, I remember having to buy my warm-ups.
[0:24:35] BW: Really? Okay. You’re like, I missed my time.
[0:24:38] DA: Notre Dame at that time, I think was the only school they had the gear. That was back in the you know mid to late seventies.
[0:24:46] BW: You're like I'm paying for mine.
[0:24:49] DA: Yes, now everybody is –
[0:24:51] BW: That's part of the recruiting almost, right? If you're not doing it then people might choose a different school.
[0:24:56] DA: Yes. I don't even know about that because I mean we're so up there, but I feel as though the level of fencing in this country has just gone up, whether it's college. The expectation is that there's a certain level of professionalism that comes with being part of our sport. Whether you're a coach, an athlete, a sports administrator, whatever that is, there's just a different level
of expectation from the standpoint of what you get and what you do. The gear piece is just a reflection of – I mean, I remember when we first started, APS, Eddie Brown's company, they were just starting to carry Nike shoes and they were just starting to move forward. Now, they're the biggest manufacturer of shoes possible. You watched it evolve and I think that what you're seeing in the year war is just a part of that evolution.
[0:25:52] BW: So, when you're scouting talent for the Buckeyes, what are you looking for exactly? Is it fencing skill? Is it mentality? What's on your radar when you're looking at someone that you might want to invite to Ohio State?
[0:26:06] DA: All of the above. First and foremost is the attitude. What is their mental? I mean, I've looked at athletes where they are really good fencers. And I'm like, “No.” First of all, I'm looking for someone – so fencing is interesting because it's an individual team sport. We have many people here who are individual fencers. They're great. They have no interest or even ability to be part of a good team.
[0:26:32] BW: And in college, that's the game.
[0:26:33] DA: That's the game. So, I'm looking for someone who's a great individual fencer that wants to be part of a great team and is willing to be able to make the commitment to that team. And even when it's at a sacrifice for what they want to do individually. I have one of my top athletes right now and there's many times he wants to do what he – because he's an individual. I mean, he's an NCAA champion. When he was a freshman, people could figure out who that is, but he's like, “Okay, I get it. I will do it for the team because we need to do this.” But then when he's like, “Can I do my own thing?” I'm like, “Yes, go do your thing.”
[0:27:11] BW: Right. There's space for it all.
[0:27:12] DA: There's space for it all. You just have to have the desire to be there. And then we're looking for talent. I mean, you're always looking for the best, whatever it is. I also tell people in a lot of ways, it's sort of like an NBA draft or a football draft. You need to fill the spots that you need to fill. This year, I need to fill the sabre spot. Next year, I need to fill the epee spot. Oh, I need it on the women's side or the men's side.
[0:27:38] BW: So, in other words, there could be a year where you just, actually, you don't need any men's epee fencers that particular year, and so, you may not be able to offer a spot to someone who is a talented men's epee fencer, and it's not because you don't want them, it's just you can't take them.
[0:27:53] DA: Oh, there have been a whole lot that I really, really wanted, that I didn't have a spot for. With that I've known them personally over the years and have watched them develop and would love to have them on my team. That's the hard part of it. That hurts where I don't have a scholarship for them. I don't have a roster spot for them.
[0:28:13] BW: The NBA draft angle is a good one. So, Don, you were talking about you want someone with the right mentality and mindset. How do you gauge that? Are you watching how they interact with their coach? Going to J.O.'s and just watching them? Or how do you assess that?
[0:28:29] DA: We watch them over years. We bring them on campus for official visits when they're at that, when they're a junior year. We listen to what other people say about them. So, all of that goes into, I mean, my coaching staff, I mean, they're a lot more active on social media than I am, so they see what they do on social media.
[0:28:50] BW: Interesting. You have to, right? Because you don't want to get yourself in trouble if there's someone who's –
[0:28:55] DA: They're always checking that stuff out. And then the most important thing in college fencing is how well do they do in five touch bouts?
[0:29:02] BW: What is that? Watching polls, then?
[0:29:04] DA: We can just do the statistics and see, this kid does not – they may not win the 15, but they make it out of the five-touch bouts, they kill it.
[0:29:12] BW: Interesting. Okay. Because that's a different – I've heard people say that that's a different skill set you have to have when everything is compressed like that.
[0:29:23] DA: Because there's no margin for error in five-touch bouts. You get a bad call, you mentally make a bad mistake, and then you slip. That's three touches. Now, that you're down 3-0. Do you have the ability to come back from that? Can you come back from that? I think the people who I look at most is when you're down 0-4 and can you bring it back?
[0:29:45] BW: Oh, yeah, yes. Even if you don't end up winning 5-4 in college fencing, it still matters if you get it a little bit closer, right, for those indicators.
[0:29:54] DA: No, it's whether you win the bout.
[0:29:57] BW: Oh, it doesn't. Okay. I thought the indicator came in.
[0:30:00] DA: Indicator comes in at the NCAA. So, you're absolutely right. In the NCAA, just like in the regional qualifiers that we had yesterday, your indicator matters. So, yes, you're absolutely right. In dual meet competition, it's just win or lose, who best to 14.
[0:30:17] BW: Gotcha. So, a question that we get a lot from high school fencers and their families is, like, what can I do to stand out? And obviously, the results, that's the biggest one. You got to demonstrate your skill on the strip. But are there some other ways that people can get on your radar?
[0:30:34] DA: Well, first of all is reaching out and communicating.
[0:30:37] BW: Okay. There's rules around that right? We should say that there’s –
[0:30:39] DA: Well, I mean you can start communicating. They can communicate any time. I can ignore them until junior year –
[0:30:46] BW: So, there’s rules when you can, as a Division one program –
[0:30:50] DA: We cannot respond to an email from a person who is a sophomore until June of their sophomore year.
[0:30:57] BW: After they're done with sophomore?
[0:31:00] DA: When they're done with their sophomore year.
[0:31:01] BW: Got it.
[0:31:01] DA: Juniors we can talk to.
[0:31:03] BW: So, you're saying you don't mind those cold call type emails of someone saying, “I'm Mr. Anthony. I'm introducing myself.”
[0:31:10] DA: I do not mind the ones that are well prepared. What really annoys me is when someone sends an email, they don't tell me what gender they are, they don't tell me what weapon they fence, and they don't tell me what year they're in.
[0:31:23] BW: They're saying, “You can look that up yourself.”
[0:31:25] DA: Good luck with your next opportunity.
[0:31:28] BW: Exactly. That's surprising. You got to put in the preparation. So, you get a good email from them, let's say, and they've linked to some results, they've given you some information.
[0:31:40] DA: Video.
[0:31:40] BW: Video, okay.
[0:31:40] DA: Video is extremely important.
[0:31:42] BW: Sorry, if this is too in the weeds, but is this like a clipped video, a highlight reel?
[0:31:47] DA: Typically, they will do – and these kids are so good. What they will do is they'll pull a highlight reel of their best competition. They always pick the ones they win, but it's not about the winning or the losing. You can see how they fence, you can see how they compete. So. those are very helpful. Do they have the technical expertise that we think we can build on? Because our goal is to make a good fencer a great, but we need somewhere to start. Can you see from the mentality of them? So, the video helps.
Then from there, what we'll usually do is set up a Zoom meeting. Or if we are fortunate to be at the same place, we'll meet them in person.
[0:32:28] BW: I've seen you chatting at the cafes that are at these convention centers.
[0:32:34] DA: You see all the coaches out there doing that.
[0:32:35] BW: Exactly. I'm like, “Stuff is happening right now.”
[0:32:39] DA: But to stand out in that environment, most important is to come prepared, to be able to ask the right questions, to articulate what your interests are, what is the benefit, what are you – first of all, I feel like they have to know what they're looking for in a college experience. They don't have to know it right then, but at some point, it's, do you want a large school? Do you want a small school? Do you want to be in a rural area? Do you want to be in an urban environment? Those are all the types of things that they, the more prepared that they are, the more they will stand out.
[0:33:12] BW: And they need to because you might be meeting with what, five, six people in a single day more?
[0:33:19] DA: Well, sometimes, yes.
[0:33:20] BW: Okay. Let's wrap up by talking about the collegiate fencing scene. Anybody who follows the news knows there's a lot of changes at the NCAA level. I don't have to tell you. What do you see as the outlook for collegiate fencing in the next five years, let's say?
[0:33:33] DA: It depends on what collegiate fencing does. One of the things that we have not done a good job of is, same thing with the rest of the sport, is really highlighting and getting more media visibility. I have a very difficult time with how we present our sport most of the time. The ACC does a very good job with their conference championships.
[0:33:55] BW: That's on the ESPN, right?
[0:33:57] DA: It's on the ESPN. Biased. I used to be a commentator for back in the day, in one of my previous lives. But that is a better presentation than no presentation, which is what happens to most of the conferences. I think there's a goldmine with NCAA. You see how March Madness is the biggest thing going. The sport in general is to tell our story. I feel as though we are in a position where we're going to grow or die. I'm very concerned with the plan to split the NCAA championships to men's and women's. We've seen historically when that happens a lot of the men's programs just die and go off. I think if we're not going to have that happen, we're going to have to do a concerted effort of bringing more revenue in so that the college programs can have the resources that they need to grow. And then I think we have to do a lot more as far as growing the men's programs, and I think we need to be able to showcase how dynamic this sport really is.
[0:34:59] BW: Yes, it's one of those that you have to see it to believe it, right? You've done a lot of work to find creative ways to showcase the sport. I know we've had a lot of conversations about those opportunities too.
[0:35:10] DA: So much more work to do.
[0:35:11] BW: There is.
[0:35:12] DA: So much more work to do.
[0:35:13] BW: So, this season of the podcast, the second season, and you're our third guest, we've been ending with five quick kind of fun questions. So, here we go. All right, so if you could host a fencing event anywhere in the world, let's say your budget is unlimited, where would you take fencing?
[0:35:30] DA: Wow, and the Grand Palais play is off the chart?
[0:35:33] BW: Well, we've seen what can be done there. So, we could go back there or anywhere that you would want to see fencing. You've seen it in a lot of places already.
[0:35:40] DA: I think at this point in time, I've seen it in so many places to take it somewhere. I would say the one place I have not seen a lot of great events is probably on the continent. So, I would like to find a really good capital where we could actually present the sport, highlight the culture of wherever we are, and I don't even have it somewhere in particular, but just being able to show how dynamic the sport is in one of those eclectic venues.
[0:36:12] BW: Yes, I love that. Okay, number two, tell me about a hobby or an activity you have that has nothing to do with fencing at all. I know you're involved in so many different areas of fencing, but what do you like to do that's completely not fencing?
[0:36:23] DA: Cars, motorcycles. I used to race cars and bikes when I had time.
[0:36:29] BW: Really? I didn't know that. That makes sense for a sabre fencer.
[0:36:32] DA: Oh, yes. It's all about being fast. It's all about being fast.
[0:36:38] BW: It's still somewhat fencing tangential. I love that.
[0:36:39] DA: Then the other thing. I'm going to go back to the martial arts. I'm going to study a good soft style, probably tai chi.
[0:36:46] BW: Yes. Okay. Number three, again, you're such a busy guy. If you had an extra hour in the day, but nobody else knew about it, what would you do to maximize that bonus hour that you got?
[0:36:57] DA: Probably write and read.
[0:36:59] BW: Okay. That's good. All right. So, number four, you've worked in tech and in high-level sports, what is like a futuristic innovation that you'd love to see in fencing, whether it's the gear, the scoring systems, the TV coverage even, what's like something that you would love to see invented or created?
[0:37:18] DA: I would love to see the scoring technology brought out of the 1932 epic that we're still using, and then combine that with the presentation from a video side where it was coordinated with a database of imagery, images, and terms so that a new audience could come in, see it, and immediately be able to do a deep dive to understand what was happening, preferably in real time.
[0:37:48] BW: That's cool. Yes. Try explaining right away to someone. But if there's a way to kind of do that in real time, like you said, with graphics that are overlaid on the fencer, in a replay, that would be really cool.
[0:38:01] DA: Exactly.
[0:38:01] BW: Yes, I see the vision. The last one, if you could have dinner with one historical figure, maybe they're a fencer, maybe they're not, who would it be?
[0:38:09] DA: The first one that just pops the mind, and maybe it's because of where we are, but would be El Haj, Malik Shabazz, aka Malcolm X, just to really get a take on where we are in the world right now.
[0:38:21] BW: Yes, interesting. I love that. Well, Don, it's been a pleasure knowing you these last three years, but also having you as our guest today and sharing your story. Thank you for all you've done for the sport and look forward to a lot more conversations to come.
[0:38:34] DA: Thank you, Bryan. Really, thank you for all that you do for our sport. You've been a really great addition to not just to USA Fencing, but to the sport of fencing as well, bringing your professionalism and the way you just have embraced the sport and the way you have been able to help others be able to appreciate it.
[0:38:53] BW: Thanks, I appreciate that.
[0:38:53] DA: Yes, thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:38:55] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the Strip. Bye.
[END]