Our guest is Chris O’Loughlin, an epee fencer and 1992 Olympian who has been an individual national champion at pretty much every level — junior, NCAA, senior and veteran.
In this episode of First to 15, we're joined by Chris O’Loughlin, an epee fencer and 1992 Olympian who has been an individual national champion at pretty much every level — junior, NCAA, senior and veteran.
In June, voters across the country elected O’Loughlin into the USA Fencing Hall of Fame as part of the Class of 2023, which means he’ll be inducted next summer in Phoenix.
First to 15: The Official Podcast of USA Fencing
Host: Bryan Wendell
Cover art: Manna Creations
Theme music: Brian Sanyshyn
EPISODE 9
[INTRO]
[00:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell, and in this show you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in the sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. So whether you're an Olympian or a Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:00:40] BW: Our guest today is none other than Chris O’Loughlin, an epee fencer and 1992 Olympian who has been an individual national champion at pretty much every level, Junior NCAA, Senior, and Veteran. In June, voters across the country elected O’Loughlin into the USA Fencing Hall of Fame, as part of the class of 2023, which means he'll be officially inducted next summer in Phoenix. Welcome to the podcast, Chris.
[00:01:05] CO: Thanks, Bryan. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:08] BW: There's so much to talk about, and I just want to dive right in. I kind of want to start with your childhood and talk about your parents. I know from researching you that your dad was an actor who was all over TV in the ‘60s and ‘70s, including a major role on the ABC drama, The Rookies. Then your mom was a casting agent for a number of major movies and TV shows. So given all that history, you ended up a fencer and not in Hollywood. So what happened there?
[00:01:33] CO: That's funny. I wasn't prepared for that one. But I have talked about this before. That's a great question. I actually wanted to be an actor. I mean, that was my first desire, my first passion. While I was allowed to act in school things and school dramas and plays and such, and even allowed to study actually, my father, who was a working actor, wouldn't allow me to be a child actor. He wouldn't allow me to do it because he had been around a lot of child actors and saw some not great things happen to them. So he said, “Look, you're free to do that when you grow up, and I'll support that. But for now, we're going to kind of keep it low key.” If it had been up to me, I would have done everything possible to try to go that route as early as possible.
But that being said, funnily enough, my father had an acting student who was a champion fencer in Europe, and he moved to the United States, and he was a student of his, and he happened to be the coach at what's now called Harvard Westlake High School in Los Angeles. It was only Harvard High School back then.
Anyway, when I was about 11 or 12, and it was time for me to look at schools, seventh grade schools, middle schools, I went and looked at that school one day, which I did not end up going to. We went and saw my dad's friend. He was conducting fencing practice. I was like 11 or 12. I just, probably like most 11 or 12-year-olds, thought, “Wow, that's amazing. You get to hit people with swords, and it's allowed.” So that was my first exposure.
Then I went on to a different school called Oakwood in Los Angeles, and they also had a fencing program at the time run by my first coach, Ted Katzoff. I just tried it first day of seventh grade, and that's how I stayed with it. The first competition I ever went to outside of Los Angeles, my father took me on a train up to what was then called the Junior Pacific Coast Championships. It was right outside of San Francisco, and that was the first time I ever went to something outside of local. I didn't do well, but I loved the idea of traveling to a fencing competition. It thrilled me to no end.
I think it was the next year I went to my first Junior Olympics in Tampa, Florida, and I was fencing in the under 16 epee. I made it all the way to the final eight there and under 16. It was my first Junior Olympics, and I was winning to make the metal round my quite a lot. But I ended up losing because I just kept doing the same thing over and over and over again. If it worked to get me here, why don't I just keep trying it?
Well, that was my first introduction to the concept of changing your game, and that was really the key turning point in my career because I literally could not sleep for about two months after that. I just could not stop thinking about that bout, and that got me to double down. I started training a lot more. It still took me a little while because then I had to move into the under 20s, and that was a whole new ball of wax for me. I was a little intimidated by the age difference.
That was my first taste of the possibility around that age, 15. But then when it really turned for me was when Abdul Salam stayed in Los Angeles after the 1984 Olympics. He decided to stay and become a coach, and he came to our club at the West Side Fencing Center, which was the West Side Fencing Center back then in Culver City. I started working with him, in addition to Ted Katzoff, and he really showed me that next level. He showed me what was possible. He showed me a level of intensity and skill that I'd never seen before.
That really took it up a notch. Leading into that summer nationals – Well, they call it just the Nationals back then. It was whatever in sort of the end of school year. So like I don't remember exactly what month they had it back then. It’s called May or June, something. That was really my big breakout. I had already been accepted to go to Penn for college, just based on some junior results. But that tournament, I beat almost everybody in the Olympic team that year that was going to be in the next Olympics. So that was probably 1980. I forget exactly what year that was.
But I beat almost everybody at that time, and I made the final eight. I think at the time, I was the youngest person to do that in epee. But that was really when I started like, “Oh, wow. There's a possibility here that I never even really imagined how high you could go and how far you could break your expectations if you put the work in.”
[00:05:51] BW: So is it that simple, that it was just working so hard that got you to that level? Because when I think of epee, I think of experience being so important. We see a lot of national and world champions in epee who are older. I don't have the statistics, but I would imagine that the average age of those champions is older than foil and sabre, right? But you had this success early on. So how do you square that in your mind how you were so successful?
[00:06:16] CO: That's a great question, Bryan. I think both can be true, and I think it's not unusual to see people have breakouts early. But experience is huge. So I mean, the way I square that in my mind is, first of all, they didn't really know me. So even at that year, when I went to the nationals, and I beat the likes of folks who are definitely higher, more experienced than I had, they didn't know me. I didn't have the experience, but I had the intensity, and I had Abdul Salam in my corner, who kind of brainwashed me into the possibilities, right?
But that being said, I was on a good run for about a year and a half without any blips or any dips. But I always tell my son, who's he's not a fencer, but he's a very, very gifted athlete, sports is like the stock market. If you keep working, it will always go up, but you're going to have dips along the way, and I had that. Experience played a big part. Unlike the first story I told you about trying the same thing and not changing, that kind of happened to me a little bit in my sophomore year, junior year in college, where I just sort of kept riding on very similar attacking type of strategy.
I wouldn't say it stopped working, but it didn't have the maturity that was needed to kind of be consistent. Let's put it that way, in much more tournaments at a higher level, starting defense internationally. That's where experience really started to come in. I mean, my game has changed many times over my career. But experience just tells me a lot about when to change, how to change, why to change, why not to change. You also have to know sometimes don't change. Experience is huge.
I mean, obviously, because the whole body is fair target, there's much more at risk, right? The smallest action or mistake can cause a head against you. So experiences is huge. It's huge.
[00:08:08] BW: Can we talk about some of those changes? Because you're 54 now and when you look back to your game back when you were in your late teens and early 20s, including when you were a freshman at Penn in 1986 and won the NCAA National Championship, you kind of alluded to that earlier. But I think you're being a little modest and not bragging about that, like maybe I would in your shoes.
But anyway, so when you compare the Chris O’Loughlin from those two eras, I guess you could say, what's different and what's the same as to how you fence?
[00:08:36] CO: Believe it or not, I actually think about that a lot. My fencing, if you watched the video, there is a video of me winning the NCAA championships. I fenced Steve Trevor, and I had to beat him twice. I held Steve and still do in very high esteem. He was very gifted. I think our top fencer at the time in the country, not just in college. I've watched that video before, completely different fencing than I fence now. I was provoking. There’s a lot of provoking. There was a lot of provoking. I had an incredible foot touch back then, which I don't have anymore, and I learned a lot.
I want to make a plug also for another coach my freshman year at college. It was Dave Micahnik. I left LA to go to Penn, and Dave Micahnik was my coach, and he taught me some things that I had never done before. I'll just simplify it by saying kind of the separation of the hand and the body. That came into play quite a lot in those two bouts, if you watch it.
Later in my life, my style, I developed much more aggressive style. But the more I did, increasingly what became important internationally for me is distance and not what the actions were but when the actions happen. I think you would hear that from almost any elite kind of high level fencer is it's not the action. It's when you do the action that matters more.
So that really became sort of the most important thing and still, to me, is the most important thing today. I really focus a lot on that little extra half step, that little extra half foot of distance of when's the right time. That's a big focus of mine, and I attribute that one. You’ll see me plug coaches. I've had a lot of amazing coaches. A guy named Boris Liberman, who I worked with before the ‘96 Olympics, who really is the one who helped me with that particular topic.
Well, on plugging coaches. I'll just have to plug, of course, Aladar Kogler, who was my coach for about five years. He really helped me so much. I said Ted Boris, Aladar. Then my veteran coaches have been Alex Abend and Jim Carpenter. Jim was also my teammate for many years and a good close friend, as is Alex, a good close friend. Alex is also the also a teammate at the New York Athletic Club, both of them.
I wanted to make one special additional thanks, and that’s to John Normile. He’s been my peer, my competitor, my friend and my teammate all the way through this journey from juniors to collegiate to seniors and veterans all the way along. Without him, I definitely would not have achieved the levels that I have achieved.
So, yeah, I don't know if that helps answer the question. But it's become more subtle, subtle, very subtle, the small things. I think you'll hear most top fencers talk about the small things.
[00:10:59] BW: I want to talk about your veteran career in a minute. But going through the chronology of your fencing career, and you were talking about the stock. Your stock was definitely continuing to rise when you graduated in ’89 and then made the Senior World Championship team the very next year. Then by ‘92, as we said in the intro, you made it to the very top, the Olympics in Barcelona.
So what do you remember about the qualification process and then discovering that you had made it to the pinnacle of our sport, Team USA at the Olympics?
[00:11:31] CO: Well, thanks, Bryan. I would say that before I answer that question, the current fencers that we have are really at the pinnacle because they're just accomplishing the elite of elite, right? Metals, gold medals in the Olympics and World Championships. So I never quite got that high, but I did beat a couple of those people. I beat an Olympian gold medalist, and I beat a world champion before my career, and I've had some good results.
But here's what I would say about qualifying for the Olympics. That was one of the craziest years of my life. I said earlier about this. It's like the stock market. I had the lowest of the lows and the highest of the highest in terms of my career during that year. I started off in some preseason tournaments, doing really, really well up in Canada, beating some of the top Canadian guys. They were very good at the time.
But then, at our very first NAC, that was the first qualifier, I didn't even make any points. I didn't even make the 32. I will tell you, it was probably one of the top three most depressing periods of my life, like that next two to four weeks. I didn't even step in the gym for two weeks. I was so depressed. Really, really had my sights set on that being the year. But my coach at the time, Aladar Kogler, really had me buckled down and encouraged me to stick with it. Others encouraged me to stick with it, and I wanted to stick with it, obviously. It wasn't over, but it wasn't a good start.
My goal at that point was just to stay on the national team, so I could go to the World Cups. So after that first one, I said, “Look, the only way I'm going to make it now is I've got to do well in a World Cup or two.” So I did that at the next NAC. I think I was placed well enough to stay on the team, on the traveling team and I think at the next one as well. I don't remember the results exactly, but it kept me on the team, the traveling team.
Then my sights really began. The way it worked back then, a lot of the circuits were before the World Cup season started. So I was plugging away at the World Cups, plugging away. Then I had my big break, was that my favorite World Cup still to this day, which doesn't exist anymore. But the Lignano World Cup in Italy, where I beat a fencer named [inaudible 00:13:36]. He was on the National French team to make the 32.
Then I actually won one more. Back then, they actually had a repechage in 32, and I have one more victory. I don't remember exactly my result, but I was like in the top 20 or something like that. The points from that were significant, and then I was able to clinch it at the nationals to secure my spot on the Olympic team, based on that combination of sticking with it.
I'll just – For a moment there, talking about what happened between ‘92 and ’96 because that's very interesting story. Our epee team got really strong between ‘92 and ‘96, the likes of Michael Marx decided to fence epee. He made two World Cup finals. Jim Carpenter made a World Cup final. Tamir Bloom was on the rise. That was really like his coming out year. Then, of course, you still had Jon Normile and Jim O'Neill and Marc Oshima and all the other guys who were still plugging away. We had a really strong, strong team, a lot of World Cup finals.
In that year, it’s funny, my fencing was much better than ’92. I was actually a much better fencer. I had multiple top 32 results. I think I won two of the NACs that year, third in the other two I think, something like that. So my results were really strong, but we had a strong team, and I was the first alternate. Tamir inched me out there with one more top 32 than I did. But we just had a very strong team.
I think the year before, I beat [inaudible 00:15:00] who ended up winning the Olympics. Then in ‘96, I beat Angelo Mazzoni, who had been a champion previously. That actually was my favorite victory of all time in the London World Cup, and I hold that one in fond memory. But it was another thing. Leading up to ‘92, I was just scrapping. I was scrapping, scrapping. ‘96, it was much more about a consistent approach, a lot more experience.
Today, these guys, they've got to make final eights and even medals to really have a shot at it. So it's a little different.
[00:15:31] BW: So you talk about some of the almost idols that you fenced against and were able to have success against and beat earlier in your career. But I also want to talk about the 2000 Div I National Championship that you won because you were 32 at the time, I believe. So the tables must have been turned. There are people who like, “Okay, I'm going against this Olympian, and maybe I have a shot against him.”
Obviously, you ended up winning the whole thing and getting a national championship. But what was that like being the one that these younger fencers were looking up to at that point?
[00:16:03] CO: I really appreciate that question because by that time, Bryan, after ’96, I called it quits for international fencing, for the most part. I just didn't – I just worked and everything like that. But I didn't want to give up fencing. I love to have always – By the way, a lot of gratitude to the USFA for NACs in general. Just to me, they're my pleasure. I love going to NACs. I always have. Just stepping in the room just makes me happy. I never gave that up. I even qualified for multiple more World Championships that I didn't go to because I wasn't really training for World Championships. So I gave those spots to other people at the time.
But in 2000, that's a great question, and the reason I love that question is because I was still training with all those guys, right? So the kids on the rise, there's all the kids on the rise, right? You had Seth, and you had Soren, and you had Jan. He was my teammate since he was a little boy, Jan Viviani. Of course, [inaudible 00:16:57], who was a Peter Westbrook Foundation fencer but was the same age as Jan. He would come and train with us at the New York Athletic Club, and we would train sometimes at the fencers club and still do, by the way.
But yeah, I'll tell you, I had to beat Jan Viviani in the eighth. He was my teammate, and I was in overtime by one touch. I had to beat Jon Normile, who is my long, long, longtime friend since I was 16 and teammate and competitor. We fenced each other more than anybody, but I had to beat him. Then I got to fence [inaudible 00:17:26], and I don't know how many people remember him. He was a gifted athlete. Just a gifted, gifted athlete and fencer, so tricky, juked everybody with his feet and his body movements. My whole approach at that bout was I am not going to react. I'm just not going to react to him, and it ended up working.
But in terms of coming up against the youngsters and them having a shot, they absolutely had a shot. I mean, I was still training, but I wasn't training like them. So this circles back to your earlier question about experience. I think it paid off that year, and I knew it was probably my last shot at ever winning a national championship. So it meant a lot to me to win it. I'd come close, but I'd never want it before. So I said this is my chance, and I took it.
But so much respect for those guys at the time and what they ended up accomplishing, that whole generation of winning the World Championships, eventually, as a team. Just happy to be a part of it. Honestly, be a part and around. A lot of those guys were on their way to the Olympics, I think. That was 2000. So it just made me very happy.
[00:18:35] BW: I want to talk about veteran fencing as well. In the US, we have vet fencing events available as soon as you turn 40. But at the international level, you have to wait until you're 50 to compete at World Championships. So can you talk about what it's like fencing in your 40s? Knowing that like you can compete at the national level, but internationally not quite yet. Was there ever a time when you were like wanting time to move faster, so you could turn 50 or anything like that?
[00:19:03] CO: That's a great question. That is a thing now, by the way. I think there is a little bit of that now. So for me personally, I'd have to go back and look. I can't remember really when I stopped fencing in the NACs. I think it might have been like 2015. Or maybe it was 2005. That sounds more like it, I think, because my son was born in 2000. So I'd have to look back. But I don't actually know when veterans fencing started. I don't have the date straight on that. I did not experience an overlap of the 40, like waiting to get in the 40.
My first taste of veterans fencing, so I took a break. My son was born in 2008. I'd say kind of the couple of years. 2005 I think was when I really stopped going on a regular basis to NACs. Then I had a long break where I didn't really fence much because of a young son and everything like that. But my first taste of veterans fencing was, I was just talking Jim Carpenter was doing it, and Michael [inaudible 00:19:59] was doing it, and some other people were doing it.
I went to the National Championships in Los Angeles in Anaheim. I don’t remember what year that was, and I just fenced in the team with them. I was there already visiting family, and we did the team, and I loved it. It was so much fun. It was so great to be back in the room. But even then, I didn't get quite back into it ‘till I don't remember when I first came back, and maybe that was 2015 or ‘16 or something like that. Jon Normile had been doing it a little bit, and I just decided to enter one of the open ones, and that was a blast. He beat me for first. He won, and I took second.
I just remembered how much I love to compete and, again, just so much gratitude to the USFA for the way they host the veterans tournaments. But even then, I didn't really have my sights set on the World Championships, the Veterans World Championships, obviously, ‘till I turned 50. Then I started thinking, “Okay, this might be a possibility.” No, I was not itching to turn 50, just so I could go to the World Championships.
But I will tell you that once it became a reality in that hearing about how seriously it's run, and by the way, for those who haven't been there, it is – They do a great job, the FIA. It's beautiful. It really – They did do a super professional job. It's just like being in a real world championships. Just say that getting the opportunity to stand on the podium with the team for the gold medal was one of the highlights of my life.
That was the first time I'd ever heard the national anthem played related to winning a medal, and it brought tears to my eyes. I'd say that and sort of the closing ceremony of the Olympics were two moments where I sat back and said, “Wow, this has been an amazing journey.”
[00:21:38] BW: Yeah, that's awesome. You're referring to the 2018 Vet World Championships, right, in Italy. So that was when you helped Team USA win that gold medal, and I've seen in interviews and heard you talk about that before, about hearing the national anthem. That just had to have been a really special moment. So what keeps you coming back because this October, you'll be in Croatia, representing in USA again and at the Vet 50s events there? So what motivates you to continue pushing now that you're 54?
[00:22:08] CO: I'd say three things. Number one is I just love to compete. A lot of times, I say to myself, maybe I should be more of a coach or something like that, and that's the way I can stay involved. By the way, I do love mentoring. Or I particularly like strip coaching younger people. I enjoy that very much. So that's another reason why I like going to the NACs. Just to be there to help other kids. But I love competing. I just love it. I love competing at practice, I love competing at tournaments, and I love traveling to compete. I always have.
So that's a big thing that keeps me coming back. The camaraderie has always been hugely important to me. It's gotten me through some really, really tough times in my life, the camaraderie that I have in fencing. Some of my best closest friends in the world, our fencing friends that I've had since I was a junior to this day.
Then the last one is increasingly exercise. I will say that I am not an exercise person. I don't enjoy exercising for the sake of exercising. I never have. I've done it because you have to. But now, I actually just realized over the last couple years how my brain feels different when I don’t fence actually, and it's the aerobic exertion that my body craves. I personally would rather fence than go for a run Or I ride my bike a lot. But whatever it is –
I mean, sports in general, I love tennis. I'll play tennis too. But fencing is just something about the intensity. Those of us who are fencers know how tired you actually get. So it's – I just feel completely different the next day after I've fenced hard. So those are the three things that really keep me coming back.
[00:23:49] BW: I was actually going to ask you about the camaraderie because I noticed that in in Minneapolis at the National Championships this past summer there, just the vet fencers, maybe more than any of the other classifications or age groups, have this camaraderie. It’s like you're so intense on the strip, but then you get off and you're laughing and chatting and going to grab dinner after maybe, right. So what is that community like, and how does it extend beyond the tournaments and the competition sphere?
[00:24:18] CO: It's an amazing community. I give so much credit to the folks who run the veterans, both from the athlete’s perspective and the USFA perspective. But it's beautiful, right? You have all the – In some instances, you're seeing people that you haven't seen in years, right? I mean, for me, some of these folks I've fenced when I was a junior or in college. Then some people take time off and then they come back to it.
Every single tournament, you're talking about stories from when you were 18, 19, 20, 21. Do you remember this? Just really quickly, I just had somebody come up to me at the last tournament tell me that they remember the day I qualified for the Olympic team. They were on a payphone, and I came in, and I asked them if I could get on the payphone to call my mom. I didn't even remember that. But they were fencing. They were in my pool in this veteran’s tournament.
[00:25:08] BW: That’s awesome.
[00:25:09] CO: But yeah. So you see people that you haven't seen in years. Sometimes, it's people you still see on a regular basis, but you're not doing veterans fencing if you don't love it. I mean, you just don't. I mean, right? You don't do it. So there's that bond of just the love of the sport.
Then I think the other really fascinating part about veterans fencing, and I don't think this is talked about enough, is the athletes who maybe they did fencing a little bit when they were younger, but they didn't have the time to do it the way that I did. Or even better is the ones who never fenced when they were younger and are just great athletes and put time in. I'm thinking of like Mark Nixon or somebody like that, who learned it because of his daughters. Those are my favorite stories are the people that take it up because their kids are doing it. Then they actually become pretty good at it.
I love those stories, and I also think to myself, if they would have been doing it when they were younger, I can only imagine how good they would have been. But I tell people this all the time. You cannot take it easy in veterans fencing. It’s not like you walk in and take it easy. I mean, whether it's people who've been fencing their whole life like me or people that have just taken it up recently, everybody's out there to win.
Then afterwards, you do get to exchange stories and exchange knowledge. There's so much knowledge about fencing now that didn't exist because of the advent of video and the Internet and stuff like that and being able to share stories and knowledge. I love the knowledge talk. I love talking about fencing. I love it. I'll talk about fencing all day long. So veterans like to do that because they're curious. They're interested. In many cases, they do want to pass it along to other people, younger fencers. They're so involved in their clubs and in the USFA.
I'm just really grateful. I'm just, honestly, so happy that the opportunity exists, and I love the veteran fencers there. They're amazing.
[00:27:10] BW: Yeah. I love what you said about it being a lifelong sport, meaning you can be like a Chris O’Loughlin and continue doing it, even after taking a little bit of a break. Or you have never started and start later.
But before I let you go here, I have to talk about the Hall of Fame. Because as we said, at the top, you were elected by your peers, which makes it even more special. I have to feel into the USA fencing Hall of Fame Class of 2023. So you talked about making the call when you made the Olympic team. Where were you when you got the call that you've been selected for the Hall of Fame? What do you remember about that moment?
[00:27:45] CO: Yeah. I'm laughing because I was at home, and Lee Shelley, who I've known. He's one of those guys that I looked up to as a junior, and he's the head of the Hall of Fame Committee. He called me and he let me know. I was by myself, actually. But I think later that day, my son came home, and he knew that I was up for it. Honestly, he was so happy for me when I told him. At 13, I did a lot of things that stand out right now that he wants to pay attention to in my life.
But when I told him about that, he was so happy and proud. It made me happy and proud. Also, honestly, what I remember, and I've said it, and I hope I'm not saying too much. I'm just so grateful for the coaches that I've had, honestly, and my friends in fencing and my peers in particular, people like Jon Normile, Jim O'Neill, Jim Carpenter, Marc Oshima, Mike [inaudible 00:28:40], who has been a friend for so long. Just how much we battled together and trained together. Ben Atkins, David Rosenberg, Matt Andresen, these guys had been around forever. I’m so grateful.
But, yeah, listen. Honestly, obviously, thrilled and honored. Because as I said before, for me, it's not just about the accomplishments, obviously. But US Fencing has been a family for me. As I said, it's gotten me through so many highs and lows in my life, and it just feels like – It’s like if your dad gave you a recognition, something like that. That's kind of how it feels to me, your family saying, “Hey, you did a good job.” That's what means a lot to me.
[00:29:28] BW: And you certainly did and still are, right? There's more to come from Chris O’Loughlin. So thanks so much for joining us, and good luck in Croatia this fall and beyond. We'll be cheering you on.
[00:29:40] CO: Thanks. I want to plug one other person that I forgot who actually has been – That I have to say a lot of things too. He's actually at the top of my list, and I just didn't find the right moment. But there's a person in US Fencing who, without him, a lot of the people in our generation would not have had the opportunity to train, certainly train, and he also just personally taught us a lot, and that's George Mason. I just want to make a shout out to George. Hopefully, you can include this because he helped me a lot and I know a lot of other fencers. Just giving us guidance, inviting us to train, talking to us about strategy, beating up on us. He’s just a patron saint to a lot of epee fencers in my generation, so I just wanted to make a special shout out to him.
[00:30:20] BW: That's awesome. We should say, from USA Fencing standpoint, he also provided us with a lot of the records of all the great fencing that's happened in this country over the years. He kind of is the keeper of those and your names in there quite a bit. So that's great to see.
[00:30:35] CO: Yeah. He's great. Also, I think, I don't know if his record is known, but I think he was a finalist in World Cups in four different decades. I think I want to say on four different continents.
[00:30:47] BW:That's awesome.
[00:30:48] CO: So somebody can check that but was also making finals in his 50s, NAC finals in his 50s, much like John Moreau with that famous story. But anyway, sorry to carry you over. I just needed to make that call out to him.
[00:31:00] BW: No, please. Well, thank you, Chris, and best wishes to you. Thanks so much for joining us on the podcast.
[00:31:06] CO:Thank you so much, Bryan.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[00:31:08] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the Strip. Bye.
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