Ben Paul, director at Leon Paul, takes us from the family’s London workshop to Olympic arenas and movie sets. He shares how a century-old company helped reinvent raised pistes and Olympic lighting, why they still manufacture in London, and how they balance tradition with bold innovation. We also dive into athlete sponsorships, fencing’s pop-culture moments (from James Bond to The Princess Bride), and what’s next: truly wireless fencing and AI-assisted refereeing. Quick hits include museum-worthy props, club upgrades, haptics, drum-and-bass inbox sprints, and why buying quality gear once can last for years.
Season 2, Episode 10
Guest: Ben Paul — Director, Leon Paul (London)
What we cover
What’s next:
Wireless fencing (lighter setups, lower maintenance, eventual in-weapon systems)
Haptics for fencers; faster club turnover and simpler user experience
AI ref-assist to explain calls and reduce beginner frustration
Gear ethos: buy well, repair, hand down—performance + sustainability
SEASON 2, EPISODE 10
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:02] BW: In a city workshop where history meets the next prototype, one family has been building fencing tools for more than a century. They've lit up Olympic peace, kitted out generations of fencing champions, chatted fencing with royalty, and then they still clock in to make this amazing gear in London every single day. Our guest today has stories from Atlanta '96, London 2012, fencing in films, and a lot of ideas about where technology can take us next in fencing. Hello, I'm Bryan Wendell. This is First to 15.
Today, Ben Paul, who is director at Leon Paul, the family company that's been crafting high-end fencing equipment for more than a hundred years. We're going to talk about the legacy and the craft, some behind-the-scenes stories, and then innovations that could change how fencers fence and how we watch fencing in the years ahead. Hey, Ben. Welcome. And thanks for joining us on the podcast.
[0:00:55] BP: Thank you very much for inviting me.
[0:00:57] BW: Let's talk origin story first. And you grew up inside one of fencing's kind of most storied workshops. What are your memories of Leon Paul as a kid?
[0:01:08] BP: My dad is an engineer, and he loved building machines. And I remember going off to see this factory as a tiny little kid and seeing these massive machines that had these sort of arms that would come out and hold things and fire, and all the sort of crazy things that you'd see in manufacturing. And I just loved it. I love the process of design. I love making stuff at school. I love doing design technology. And that all stemmed from my father. And my father's main passion was probably fencing, but second was tinkering with toys, making stuff, building something. And I definitely took that from him.
[0:01:45] BW: What about your experience on the strip? Were you involved in fencing on that side of it as well?
[0:01:52] BP: I fenced to not a great level. I'm probably the black sheep of the family. Leon Paul was a good fencer and then a very high-level coach. He coached world champions, Olympians, etc. And then his sons and daughters, all the generations down to me, cousins, have represented countries, gone to Olympics, won big A-grade internationals. And so the bar was probably set very high for me. And I actually remember it being very stressful going and doing my first little competitions as a kid. I felt like everyone was watching me. Everyone was like, "This guy has to do." And so I didn't actually enjoy it when I was younger. It was only when I came back to fencing years later, more to test product and stuff, that I started enjoying it again. And that's something that I'm desperately trying not to put onto my kids. I have two younger kids now. But it's funny how sort of pressures of family can change your experience.
But then someone like Alex Massialas had the complete opposite for me. Our dad sort of fenced at the same sort of time and actually have fought each other in the big famous event in Paris and stuff, I think. But he was the complete opposite to me. His dad did it, and he loved doing it. And that almost excelled him to do it more. And he was sort of – it inspired him to do more, as I found it was the opposite. And it was stressful, and it was something that I wanted to shy away from. It's funny how these things can sort of pan out.
[0:03:10] BW: The actual fencing wasn't maybe something that was for you, but you at some point must have decided, "Okay, this is the family business, and I'm going to get involved with it," right? I feel like anybody who is part of that legacy and has a family business has to make that decision at some point to either "Yes, I'm in." or "I'm going to take a different path." What was that like for you?
[0:03:31] BP: My father and mother, they probably didn't want me to join the family business. They thought go off and work for a big multinational or something. And I had been interested in computer science. And I came along to do a website. And so Leon Paul, we had one of the first websites that we're selling online. And we're sort of early adopters of the sort of internet and internet selling.
And I came to start that project, and I never left. That project is still ongoing. I'm still updating websites it seems constantly as the tech changes. But that was a massive game-changer for us. We were a good manufacturing company in the UK, and we found it very difficult to sell around the world because there were lots of restrictions. It was hard to see people. You had to take all your kit to an event. And if that event was in America, Eastern Europe, whatever, very expensive to do.
And then, suddenly, the internet came along, and now everyone can see your stuff, and anyone can order it, and anyone can try and get it and buy it. And that opened up the world to our business. And from then, because the business was growing, there was more – and I'm really interested in design, and I could sort of come in and help design new products. And it really gave me a freedom that I wouldn't have been afforded elsewhere. If I'd gone and worked in a big multi-national, I think what would have happened is it's very hard to make big changes because they're big organizations that move slowly.
And so in the end, it was just like a perfect fit. I've loved doing it. I work with my brother. We are like best friends. We enjoy working. It means we can split the work. If he wants to go on holiday, I can do some work if. We can split the work. It's been amazing for us and amazing for our family as a whole.
[0:05:09] BW: You talk about the changes, not just selling online, but also just to the fencing gear that Leon Paul is putting out into the fencing world. Obviously, over a hundred years, the company has seen so many evolutions in the sport. Are there some milestone moments that whether they predate you or not that you point to and say, "Leon Paul was at the forefront of this evolution in fencing itself?"
[0:05:33] BP: Yeah, I like to think of the Olympics is super important for fencing. And every four years, we get this chance to showcase something and do something bigger and better, and try and maybe impress the world, and then that will get more people fencing. And we typically tend to sort of work in those sort of four-year periods. If we take Atlanta 1996, that was the first time that we had these raised piece. And the sectional aluminum piece that everyone uses now, that was actually an invention by my dad for that event. And that was so that you could click together these piece quickly and have the floor before they had these kind of copper roll-out things, or you had to literally nail this aluminum to the floor.
And because of the Olympics and them particularly wanting a thing that you could put down relatively quickly and then change, another sport would come in. And so the Olympics kind of bred the necessity to have the invention. And then the invention occurs. And now it's everywhere. At the last American nationals, there were hundreds of these metal piece, and hundreds of people competing on them. That was a great sort of milestone.
And then if we look at 2012, the lighting that we had there, the FIE. And a guy called Ioan Pop was kind of a visionary and wanted this kind of look. And he described how he wanted it to look. And then we went away and delivered it. And I think when people came into that arena and saw these big lights go off, and it looked like Tron. And the Tron film was out at that time. And everyone was just like, "Oh my god, fencing is amazing kind of thing."
[0:06:57] BW: Yeah. High-tech feel to it, right?
[0:06:59] BP: Yeah. And it came away, I think, voted like the best-looking sport, the second best-looking sport at the Olympics or whatever. And there are things that I'm particularly proud of where you do an invention that then you can show to the world, and then it sort of is continued and then adopted into the sport as a kind of ongoing thing for the rest of time.
[0:07:16] BW: Yeah, I think that's so cool. You also still manufacture in London. What's the rationale behind that? That might not be the most cost-effective option, I would imagine, in this global economy. What's the thinking there, Ben?
[0:07:31] BP: My dad's crazy and stubborn. I hope he doesn't listen to this.
[0:07:34] BW: There you go.
[0:07:35] BP: My dad, Barry Paul, as an engineer, and from his university time, they were building stuff in the UK. And he felt that we could build stuff in the UK, and we could do a good job at it. And so he was very reluctant to lose the skills and send it to places where maybe you can make it maybe a lower price, but you lose lots of the skills and you lose some of the ability maybe to see places where you can improve and quickly change design. And so he basically stubbornly refused.
And I think at a time when lots of European people manufacturing was kind of being outsourced. And maybe the high-end stuff stayed, but some of the lower maybe – what was seen as lower-skilled things moved away. And I think luckily for us in the long run, that has paid off because it's given us a really good understanding of the stuff we're building. And as new technologies come along, like better, for example, robot arms. You can get robot arms now for quite cheap. And they can reduce some of your labor cost, but keep your quality the same. But you can then keep that ability to think of an idea and make it very, very fast and then have a new product within 6 months instead of 2 years. And that is really just because of my dad's stubbornness.
And sometimes it doesn't make sense when I look at the rent costs in London and stuff. I think, "God, if we move somewhere else, there would be a big saving there." But the plus of living being in London is you get talent and you've got lots of people. So you can find people to do everything. And so a quid pro quo is you can find talent and you can develop things quickly. But the counter side to that is it is more expensive. We can never match prices of some of the places, which have much cheaper labor costs. I like to think that we sort of manage in our space. And there's a kind of space for all different styles of manufacturing. We just happen to be at that end.
[0:09:32] BW: Anytime there's a new development within fencing, you're going to get some of the traditionalists who say that's not fencing. You're changing too much. So, how do you, as a company that's so linked into this sport, balance tradition versus innovation? You want to move the sport forward, make advances, while also realizing that this sport is one of the OGs, right? One of the original Olympic sports.
[0:09:57] BP: It's something that I actually have struggled with previously. As a person that likes designing stuff, I would fall into the trap of designing stuff for myself instead of for actually the market, because you think, "Oh, I like this thing." And I like stuff to look futuristic and light up. And I have very idea of where I want to go. And you end up building this expensive thing, and then no one actually wants it.
The first sort of step that I now take is I try and work out who is the core customer that this product will service. And also, are the end users really inspired by that? And that comes from doing, basically, research. We do like a questionnaire once a year out to our customers. If we're starting a new product, we will – let's say, if we're designing a new bag, we will reach out to, say, 100 people that bought bags of us. Ask what their experience is. Then we design according to their sort of feedback. And then in terms of keeping it sort of relevant and not pushing too far against the tradition.
Again, I think a lot of people, outsiders, when they come to see the sport for the first time, they find some of the rule set quite hard to understand. And I've always been a big believer in trying to make it simple for an end user, a sort of a viewer, a spectator, as it were. And I think we could do more in terms of listening to spectators. Ask them what they want, what they didn't understand.
Paris Olympics did an amazing job of making it look like an amazing arena and stuff, but we can't all just have a Grand Palais, just stick it there. Everything's exciting now. We need to kind of maybe look a little bit beyond that and see what things people don't like, what they do like. And I always go back to if you watch young kids, have never been really taught anything about fencing, and they're in a park, they'll pick up two sticks and they'll start basically sword fighting. And if you go into a school and say, "Hey, would you like to do sword fighting or American football or soccer?" If you ask a six-year-old, all of them will say sword fighting. And somewhere along that journey, we kind of lose the battle, and people end up wanting to do the mainstream sports.
And so somewhere, we've taken the number one wanted to do sport probably in the world and then put it behind others. And I don't really have the answer for that, but I think we can do more. I think the FIE have done a good job of sort of promoting it. US Fencing have done a great job. I mean, I came to see the first national championships. We weren't selling much in America. And I came, I think it was about 2004, maybe 2008 or something. And I was just blown away by the size of it already. You had huge amounts of people coming, lots of young people, lots of university-style people. And I knew that it was going to be growing in America. And that's because it's a really good product. People come and they enjoy it.
And I just think more of that. If we can see where people have done well, see which federations have done really well, share that information, copy it, then it will kind of grow, and it will naturally happen over time that we can marry the tradition with the advancements in technology.
[0:12:58] BW: You mentioned listening to feedback and also coming to the United States. Having seen the Leon Paul booth, really cool looking setup at our national tournaments, what has been the feedback and the experience of bringing your equipment to the American audience?
[0:13:15] BP: Cindy, who runs Leon Paul USA and America First, she had this kind of vision of making our stand at your competitions and events be more like a sort of traditional sort of shop where you can kind of enter this space and a bit more of a traditional retail environment. And I just trusted her and said, "You know your customers better than me." I think that's one of the things that I have learned over time is that every country has its different norms. And it's very easy for a British person to come along and say, "We do it like this." And the French, "You should all do it like me. We've been doing this for 100 years." And it just doesn't work like that. Every country is different. And I think that retail experience works really well in America. And it just seems like a really good fit.
I'm a big fan of America. I've come lots of times. Cody Mattern, for example, Soren Thompson, they were épée fencers back in the day. And they were some of the first Americans I've sort of met and sponsored. And big influence on how I've decided to sort of, A, design equipment, but also go to America, come to the events was because of their sort of enthusiasm and their drive to make America win against kind of all odds. America 15, 16 years ago, in fencing terms, they were kind of almost seen as a bit of a joke, like the British compared to the French and the Italians and the Russians, and all these countries that were winning all the time. It was kind of like, "Oh, yes. I've got an American in the pool. Oh yes, I've got a British in the pool. Ha-ha-ha."
And then these guys came along, and they were so focused and dedicated. And that was kind of really inspiring. And then I think more and more American fencers have been given more and more support by the federation, and that shows in your results. The results have been stunning. And now America is one of the great fencing nations in maybe 20 years. It's an amazing achievement. Yeah, very inspiring whenever I come to America, seeing these massive events. And I just hope one day we can catch up in the UK and maybe have some big events and win some medals.
[0:15:12] BW: Yeah, absolutely. And part of that success has also inspired Leon Paul and other companies to sponsor some American athletes. I'd love to hear about your company's philosophy when it comes to sponsorships. How do you identify athletes that you might want to sponsor? How do you make that approach? And what's it like working with these fencers? Because I imagine it's more than just here's some free gear. You probably also want that feedback loop where you say what do you need to succeed?
[0:15:42] BP: Yeah. The sponsorship sort of process, I suppose, is in each region. So let's say if we take Leon Paul Italy, for example, they know who's going to be good. They've seen these kids. And they're really young age. Take Favaretto at the moment. They started sponsoring her, I think, when she's like 14 or something. And they saw her, and they were like, "This kid's going to be really good." And I just basically have to trust them and say, "Okay, yeah. Let's sponsor them and see where it goes."
[0:16:06] BW: That turned out well, right?
[0:16:07] BP: Yeah, exactly. The Italians are brilliant at spotting talent. I always trust them. Those guys nail it every time. I'm rubbish at it. And so you can sometimes be lucky and spot talent early on, like Rebecca Ward in the US was one that we had that was very young. And you could see she was going to be amazing. And once you sort of – my philosophy is support the youngest people almost more because they're the people that need the most help. And when you become famous in fencing terms, which is not like tennis or anything else, but you're kind of made and you're going to be supported by your federation, and you're kind of on your way there. I find it's better – it's probably more valuable to fencing as a whole to sponsor more younger people rather than just picking, let's say, the five best, look at the rankings, and say, "These top five, just go and sponsor them."
Working with the athletes – and each athlete is different. Some athlete is very focused and very little engagement, and they're just there. And some are constantly looking for ways to improve, sending you details, etc. And really have improved products. Saber grips. Our saber grips have been improved because saber fencers came and said bluntly, "Your old saber grips were terrible. You need to change." And I was like, "All right. I never did saber. Why did no one tell me?" And so that is athlete engagement to improve stuff.
But on the whole, fencing, sponsorship-wise, I think we are desperate to find more big company sponsors. Because people like Leon Paul and other manufacturers that are all great and doing great jobs, we just don't have the funds of like a Coca-Cola, of like a Barclays Bank. And you look at some athletes around the world and they get so much money and so much support. And if we can even just tap into these vast sums of money that other people seem to get, that would help the athlete so much and help the sport so much. But I don't quite know how we do it. But there seems to be an opportunity maybe there, especially around the Olympic time when everyone – like in LA, everyone will suddenly get really into seeing these maybe more niche sports. And how can we maybe attract them so that the fencers can get a real proper payday as opposed to some free kit and a bit here or there.
[0:18:14] BW: Yeah, you're right about the Olympic window. I'm thinking that's the time when we do see – at least in the US we see some athletes sponsored through the US OPC and the sponsorship deals that they're coming up with. And I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier, which was London 2012, and the kind of evolution there of making the sport look like Tron, look high-tech and exciting. What was your role in those games? And what do you remember that – and what stands out from London 2012?
[0:18:42] BP: What I found very interesting from a sort of behind-the-scenes sort of perspective of London 2012 is basically, when you see it on TV and when you go to the stand, everything looks very calm. And everything is perfect, and everything is like, "Oh, great." Behind the scenes, it's just chaos. There's basically chaos everywhere. Every day, something is going wrong where some kit can't get in because they haven't passed the security, because the security is now the army and the military instead of the old security who are just guys paid to look after a warehouse, in effect.
And suddenly, you're fighting fires. You're suddenly like, "Okay, this doesn't fit." Or, "This camera –" at 2012, the lights, they put all the lights above the top of the athletes. And then when they shone down, it just went straight into the fencer's eyes." They would come on guard, and then they couldn't see anything, right? And so, they were like trying to stick tape to it. And then we were like, "You have to move the lights like this." And then the lights are coming inwards rather than directly into your eyes.
And basically, it looks like everything is really prepared in advance. But really, everything's all right until the night, and then there's a bit of chaos and a bit of firefighting. And I think all the behind-the-scenes team do an amazing job of producing something that looks amazing. I'm sure the same in Paris, etc., will have happened. But that was an eye-opener for me.
And it's probably one of my proudest moments was watching that Olympics and taking my friends and showing them, and also one of my most stressful times. No sleep for a week when you're just like, "What happens if they fall through the floor or something?" and stress dreams would come about. But yeah.
[0:20:14] BW: When you look back on that, what do you think was the legacy for Leon Paul that came out of London 2012?
[0:20:22] BP: I think we inspired a lot of people to take up fencing. The sport grew in the UK. I also think that it was the FIE's idea. I'm just saying. But the visualization of that then allowed the FIE to take lots of that equipment. And that's still being used. So the stuff that was used at 2012 was then used in Paris. That has passed on. And it's given that kind of idea that the last quarters, semi-finals, you put on a show. And if it looks brilliant, then it will go on YouTube and all these different platforms, and people will watch it. And that just drives more people to come and see it. So I think the legacy is make it look cool, and then more people will do it. And that just builds a sport, puts more money into it, etc.
[0:21:02] BW: Yeah. And you can probably guess one of the reasons I'm asking is, here in the US, we've got LA 2028 coming up, right? And that's going to be a big moment for US fencing in my hope and growing the sport here, which is, of course, good for fencing internationally. What would be your advice to USA fencing? And not that we're the ones putting it on, but we will have some of our people helping out and assisting. How do we capitalize on that moment that's coming up in less than 3 years now?
[0:21:30] BP: I think every country needs to add its special thing, it's special sort of – in Paris, they could play on the history and the ancient role that fencing has had in kind of the French connection. And I think America is a bastion of technology and putting on a show. And I remember, I was lucky enough to go to New York and I watch a basketball game. But just the entertainment all the time. Not just the basketball. But all the time was big. And everything was exciting. And everyone was positive. And I just think you just bring that to it, people will come, people will love it.
I would say embrace of technology and entertainment. No one does entertainment better than America, I think. My personal opinion. And if you can put that into fencing, and we can then take that away, and that will be the thing that America delivered. Rather than just the lights, maybe it's like the whole show, the whole sort of – and the feeling around fencing. Yeah, be yourself, and do the things that you do great, and it will be amazing.
[0:22:29] BW: Yeah. If you have fencing in Hollywood and you don't make it entertaining, then you've done something wrong, right?
[0:22:35] BP: Something's kind of got gone wrong. Yeah. But I honestly can't wait to see it in LA. It's going to be amazing.
[0:22:42] BW: Fencing on film, that's a great segue into that. When you see fencing in movies, what's your reaction to it? And do you have any experience providing kits to celebrities or providing fencing gear to movie studios so that they can include the sport in their films?
[0:23:00] BP: Fencing in films. We were very lucky to have worked – there was a guy called Bob Anderson. Leon Paul taught him how to fence. And then he went away to be a stunt double. And his first role was basically he was fencing with Errol Flynn. Errol Flynn said to him when the cameras weren't rolling, "Oh, this isn't how you do a lunge. You do a lunge like this." And Bob was going off to the Olympics. And he didn't say anything, and he just said, "Yeah. Okay. Yes, sir." And someone went to Errol Flynn afterwards and said, "Look, that guy's going to the Olympics. It's a bit silly you're trying to teach him how to lunge."
And so he went up to Bob and said, "Look, you didn't show me up in front of all my friends, in front of everyone. That was really nice of you. You could have made me look like an idiot. You could be my stunt double for a long time." And he then got lots of work on films. And it always goes to show that I always think if you're nice to everyone, it usually comes back and pays off for you. That's like the moral lesson from him there.
But then he went off and did Star Wars. He was the guy doing Darth Vader in the fights, doing the choreography, Lord of the Rings, Highlander, millions of films. And then one day I got a call at work and this guy said, "Hey, who's that?" And I said, "Oh, it's Ben Paul." And he said, "Oh, would you like a job?" And I said, "I've kind of got a job." And he says, "Oh, my job's for a James Bond film." And I was like, "Okay." So I said, "Dad, I quit. I'm off."
I went off to Pinewood Studios in the UK and we did this James Bond film. And it was probably about 6 months' work. And Pierce Brosnan, it was Halle Berry. Massive film. And they had a big fencing scene in it. And we sort of supported and did that. And then the uptake of fencing after that, I still had people coming out a few years ago saying, "Oh, the reason I got into fencing was I saw that film." And that got me into fencing.
And then we've seen it in like Wednesday Adam and stuff like that where – and I always think anytime any of those people call, when they called and said, "We need a black fencing suit for this production," I wasn't like, "Oh, you can't do black fencing. That's crazy." I was just like, "Yeah, sure. We'll just do it." And you make the custom uniforms, and you try and just give a film anything they need to make something look good, because one thing like that will get you thousands of fencers. And you can do a lot of Olympics and stuff and not have that same level of connection.
But yeah, fencing in the films, when it's done right. Everyone remembers like the Princess Bride sort of I'm left-handed, right-handed, or Star Wars, or these films, Zorro, etc. And that's what inspires kids to do fencing. And the more we can do, the absolute better it will be for the sport.
[0:25:23] BW: Yeah. I think that's the right attitude, too, is like you want the fencing to be authentic. But if they want to get creative with the color of the uniform or something with the mask, I think you want to say yes, right? Because we'd rather have them involved than to just say, "Okay, never mind. We're going to go a different direction entirely."
[0:25:41] BP: Yeah. Exactly. We don't do it like that. And sometimes you do see fences and they're watching a film, they're like, "Oh, well, no one would ever do that in fencing." And it is quite easy to see. Some actors are brilliant, and they work really, really hard and do amazing stuff and look perfect. And sometimes you see it and you're like they probably had to learn fencing in a day. Of course, their lunge isn't going to look as good as a guy that you're watching who's an Olympic-level fencer or whatever. And I think you just need to sort of – as a fencer, you have to step back and say, "Well, what is most people are just seeing and thinking, "Oh, that's a cool thing. That's a cool lunge." They're not thinking technically. That's all wrong. You wouldn't lean back that much. Or overanalyzing something that is supposed to be entertainment.
[0:26:21] BW: Talking about celebrities, did I see a story that Ryan Gosling brought his kids to get some fencing gear at Leon Paul?
[0:26:27] BP: Yeah. When my wife find out, she killed me that I didn't call her up and tell her to come into the thing. He's the one person she's looking for. I think they were doing a film here. I think maybe doing some stuff for the new Star Wars movie, which is – no, series, which is coming out soon, I believe. And I don't want to say too much, but I know his kids are interested in doing fencing and stuff. And I do think there are – there have been over the years quite a few celebrities who have had kids that have done fencing. And quite a lot of celebrities have done fencing themselves because it was part of their sort of stunt. You get a list of things that you can do. And if you've done sword fencing or horse riding, then you're more likely to get more films basically. A lot of it is done in the movies.
And anytime any of them, that will obviously draw loads more people because word travels, and they'll go to a fencing club or whatever, and all those people will know. They'll tell others and say anything we can do to inspire sort of famous people to do fencing. Happy days. You know?
[0:27:22] BW: Of course. And have them talk about it as well. But we've had some success with that. And then people you hear that they were fencers in college or that they used to fence. And like that's another avenue where we could re-engage with those people and make an approach and say, "Hey, you're never too old to pick it back up."
[0:27:38] BP: And that is something that I think is amazing about the sport is that you can come back to it after doing university or whatever, and then you've finished. And then your kids maybe get back into it. And I think health now, people are seeing the benefits of health and doing exercise and doing sport for kids, but also for adults. And veteran fencing is growing really nicely, I think. And for anyone who doesn't know, I don't mean veterans like war veterans. I mean, people that are older, they like to do sword fencing.
And there's big – these veterans, world championships, they're held in these really cool places. You can go and compete. You can go and watch. And a sport that you can start at seven and finish at like 80 years old. There's not many that you can do that and still have fun and continue all that way. And I think that's something maybe we don't talk enough about. But there aren't many sports. You can't go and do American football at 80. You'll be killed.
[0:28:36] BW: Good point. Yeah. And Team GB has a great fencing program. I mean, your CEO, Georgina, is a vet fencer herself.
[0:28:42] BP: Yeah.
[0:28:43] BW: And so, yeah, I think that's great to see. And obviously, the US does well at the vet worlds and veteran competitions as well. I'd love to pivot into like the technology and what's coming next in fencing. Are there some things in the pipeline that you're able to share when it comes to fencing equipment and technology that you're really excited about and that we can watch out for?
[0:29:08] BP: Yeah, a few things that we are kind of working on, and a few things that we are not necessarily working on, but I know are out there. And all the technologies are sort of aligning. Wireless fencing. We had a wireless fencing system. And then over COVID, the particular chip that we used got bought out by stockpiling. And you can never get it again. And so we've done all the work on this one particular chip. And it's taken us a long time to rebuild the whole system on a new set of chips, and we've done it in a way where we can use different range of chips now. We're not completely beholden on one supplier, which is kind of the lesson from COVID is don't put all your eggs in one basket because you never know when something crazy is going to happen. We're just about to release a new version of that. And that's brilliant for people just to be able to fence without the wires.
And we've had kids that have only fenced on wireless systems. And then they've gone to competitions, and they haven't understood how to plug the wires in. And then when they've done it, they've been like, "This is crazy. This is archaic. Why are we doing this?" And I really feel like wireless fencing is something that we need to deliver and will improve the sport and make it cheaper for clubs, cheaper – for example, US fencing. Instead of shipping all of this wiring, all this electronic heavy stuff around, if you can just have a much lighter battery-operated system, you can save fortunes, especially maybe not necessarily in all the massive tournaments, but certainly in the smaller, more regional tournaments. I'm very, very excited for wireless fencing.
And I think in the end, we should be able to get it. Certainly, basically, inside the weapon. You shouldn't need a body wire. Your whole weapon should be your wireless thing eventually. That is the aim that we have to get to so that you can just literally turn up. You and I could have our swords. We would sort of touch them together. They would pair and then we could fence each other. You'd be getting some signal from the swords, maybe some haptic feedback, some vibration, etc. And we could just have fun fencing in your garden, in a school hall, wherever. That's where I'd like it to go.
I also think from our sort of research with fencers, particularly young fencers, one of their biggest frustrations is kind of inconsistent refereeing. And that is – I'm not having a go at referees. I can't referee. It's really hard. Sometimes you're just like they're short of referees. And they're like, "Hey, Ben, referee." And like I'll do my best. You just don't want me to be your referee because I'm really bad at it. And it's a skill. As if we could get something where you could film it on your camera, and an AI could say, "Look, with 95% certainty, I think this happened." I think kids would love that. Parents would love that because you're taking away that – because at the higher levels, usually the decisions are much better. It's that low-level sort of just starting out fencing. And it can be a big disappointment to a kid to have felt like he's been – they see it as cheated. It's not cheated. It's just mis-refereed out. But they see it as they were robbed. And then they just think, "Oh, you know what? I'm going to go and take up the saxophone or something and do something else."
[0:31:59] BW: And they're still learning the rules at that age, too, right? It can even say, "Okay, here's who the AI determined who got that touch, and here's why."
[0:32:06] BP: And here's why. Yeah. And I think that would be a massive game-changer. And I know some universities are looking at that. And I do think that that's something that will come at some point. I don't know when, but it will come. And I think that's something that could really be a nice boost for the sport. I think wireless and AI refereeing, ref aid, or whatever, would be two things that I think could really improve the sport and aren't too far away.
[0:32:29] BW: Yeah, I love that. Well, with a few minutes left, we'll let's move into the quick hits section. So I've got five quick questions for you to wrap this up. This has been a really great conversation. Before we started recording, you said that you were kind of in this room with a bunch of fencing historical artifacts. But I'm wondering, for my first question, if you could take something that's in the building with you right now and put it in a museum somewhere, what's like that one piece that you think is the absolute coolest in that room?
[0:32:59] BP: In this room, I have a replica of the sword of Aragorn. And it would be that. And that was the one that was actually used in the stunt fighting. It's an aluminum blade. And you can see the dents on it where it was used by Aragorn to basically fight or whatnot. And that has sat in this room.
[0:33:18] BW: That's a good one. That is great. Okay. Now, question two. If you're at a club and you have a few minutes to improve the equipment that they have there, what's like the one thing that you would start with? Is it the weapons themselves? Is it the gear? Is it the strips? Maybe it is going back to wireless. What would it be?
[0:33:37] BP: Going forward? Wireless. I think wireless is going to be the thing that could improve club fencing. It's quicker to switch between the fences. It's more understandable to kids that are used to having smartphones in their pockets rather than a wheel. There's less repair work. There's less maintenance. There's less setup time. I think it's going to be wireless.
[0:33:56] BW: I like that. And I got to go back to that haptic feedback idea because that's the first time I've heard that. That would be super cool. As a USA fencing staffer, we got to do a little club fencing in Colorado last week. And at this particular club, the scoring machine is on the wall behind you. I had no clue whether I got a touch unless the person I was fencing told me, and I had to turn around. But imagine if I could like feel a little buzz that told me. That's cool. I had never heard that before.
[0:34:22] BP: Yeah. And the interesting thing is the amount of buzz that you need in your fingers compared to the amount of buzz you need in your pocket is amazing. Your fingers can feel the tiniest vibration. I was like, "Oh, yeah, that's brilliant." And then our wireless fencing pack is actually put in the back pocket, and then you couldn't feel it. So I had to make super much more vibrating when it's in your pocket rather than in your hands. Anyone interested in any haptic feedback. Top tip.
[0:34:47] BW: Yeah, I love that. Okay, so question three. If there's a famous movie duel that you've seen, a famous fencing scene in a movie, and you'd love to see that redone for modern times maybe, or just because it has some things that frustrated you about it, the look and feel, is there one that stands out to you?
[0:35:07] BP: My favorite fencing is Princess Bride. The scene where they get to the top of the cliff, and they fence each other. And then it turns out that he's left-handed, not right-handed. I actually was lucky enough to meet one of the actors in that, a signing. And we talked a bit about the amount of training that they did to do that. And it was weeks of training. And they they just got seriously good at fencing. And they were doing up and downstairs. And if you've ever tried this – well, don't try this at home. It's probably dangerous. I've tried it. Trying to do actual a bit of sword fighting upstairs is really hard. You are falling over everything. And they make it look effortless. And they make it look brilliant. And we should just do that scene again with modern actors in a modern environment, and that would blow the doors off.
[0:35:51] BW: I love that. Okay. So, when you're at the office, do you have something playing, some type of music that makes your work better, you feel like? A soundtrack to Leon Paul? Is there something that's playing when you're working?
[0:36:03] BP: I personally randomly like drum and bass music, which is probably a massive surprise to everyone. But I grew up in London in a time where that was the music of my younger generation. When I'm looking and I've got 120 emails to do, sometimes I just put my headphones on, find a drum and bass track, and I will go through my emails in like 10 minutes. If you get a short reply email from me, it's usually because I'm listening to drum and bass in the background.
[0:36:30] BW: That's great. That's great. Okay. And then last one. I like to ask this question about like an elevator pitch, but specific to what you do. If you were talking to a parent who's maybe never seen fencing, how would you explain to them in maybe 20 seconds why good equipment matters? Maybe they understand the sport a little bit, but you're explaining why do you need good equipment to succeed in this sport?
[0:36:55] BP: My feeling is if you can buy the right equipment once, it will last you almost a lifetime. And I'm a big believer in making something and building it to last. I don't believe in building in redundancies like batteries that die. You should make everything repairable, and so that it can be handed down. You can sell the equipment secondhand if you're growing out of it. And then you're winning on all fronts because you're saving on environmental costs, which is something that I'm a big passionate believer in. You are having the equipment that's the best. That's going to help you perform better anyway. And then at the end of the day, you can pass it on to someone else. You can sell it. You can reuse it. That's why I invest in the best.
[0:37:34] BW: That's well said. Well, Ben, thank you for bringing all these stories and a look at what might be coming next in fencing to First to 15. If you're interested in learning more about Leon Paul, check out their website, social media, and even stop by and see them at a future knack and say hello. So Ben, thanks for joining us. And good luck this season.
[0:37:54] BP: Thanks very much. Bye-bye.
[0:37:56] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up-to-date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. And if you like this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the strip. Bye.
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