Fencing has a long and fascinating history — and Alyssa Hirsch is helping uncover it. A Ph.D. student at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign and former Wayne State varsity fencer, Alyssa studies 20th-century U.S. fencing and its intersections with immigration, identity, and the Soviet Union. She joins First to 15 to share how she became a fencing historian, the stories she’s discovering — from post-Soviet coaches to Cold War camaraderie — and how every club can help preserve its own history.
Season 2, Episode 12
Guest: Alyssa Hirsch — PhD Student, University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign; Fencing Historian
What we cover
How a varsity fencer became a fencing historian
The first spark: a Soviet fencing essay in high school and an interview with coach Anatolie Senic
From Wayne State to Purdue to Illinois: tracing fencing’s place in American and world history
The 1956 Hungarian Revolution and how émigré fencers reshaped U.S. clubs
Alyssa’s dissertation: post-Soviet immigration, identity, and fencing as a path to belonging
Sources of history: magazines, oral interviews, advertisements, photographs, and archives
Surprises from research — Cold War cooperation and “game recognizes game” moments
How universities and college teams shape access and inclusion
Fencing’s class barriers and underrepresented groups, and how programs like the Peter Westbrook Foundation help bridge the gap
Preserving history: digitization, oral storytelling, and why every club has its own archive
Advice for aspiring historians: start with your coaches, club posters, and community
Quick hits: time-travel destinations, favorite artifacts, research playlists, and the fencer she’d invite to dinner
Quotable
“When I’m adapting to a new place, the first thing I’d look for is a fencing club.” — Alyssa Hirsch
“History isn’t just politics — it’s people, choices, and friendships on the strip.” — Alyssa Hirsch
Timestamps
00:00 — Intro: turning archives into living stories
01:10 — How Soviet anecdotes sparked a lifelong passion
04:22 — Becoming a fencing historian
05:58 — The 1956 Hungarian Revolution and émigré coaches
08:14 — Alyssa’s dissertation: post-Soviet identity through fencing
10:03 — Why fencing history is still largely untold
11:17 — Research process: magazines, ads, archives, interviews
12:59 — Surprising discoveries about Cold War respect and collaboration
15:38 — Collegiate fencing as a bridge across skill levels
17:48 — Class, race, and representation in U.S. fencing
20:21 — Favorite find: a 1958 Soviet fencing manual
22:41 — What being a fencing historian actually looks like
24:22 — Advice for future researchers and club archivists
26:32 — Quick hits: time machine, artifacts, playlists, and Helene Mayer
SEASON 2 EPISODE 12
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:01] BW: All right, imagine a stack of crinkled club newsletters, or a shoebox of unlabeled photos, or a varsity warmup from a team that doesn't exist anymore. Where most people might see clutter, today's guest sees a map, a way to trace how fencing in the US became what it is, and how immigration, identity, and geopolitics shaped the sport on and off the strip. I'm Bryan Wendell, and this is First to 15.
Our guest is Alyssa Hirsch, a third-year PhD student at the University of Illinois Urbana Champaign, who studies 20th-century US fencing history and its Soviet intersections. She fenced varsity at Wayne State from 2017 to 2021, earned her BA in history there, her MA in history at Purdue in 2023, and now she spends her days turning these sources into living stories. We're going to start with how a varsity fencer even became a fencing historian, then dive into some of the stories that she's been unearthing, and then finish with some advice maybe for those who want to preserve their fencing stories in their own community. Hey, Alyssa, welcome to the podcast.
[0:01:07] AH: Hi, Bryan. Thank you so much for having me. That was an awesome introduction.
[0:01:10] BW: You've got an awesome story. We're excited. I mean, what got you into studying fencing history? You have a background in the sport, but not everybody is curious about what's been going on before them.
[0:01:24] AH: There's a couple forays and ways I got into wanting to study the history itself. Before I went to college, I've actually fenced at Renaissance Fencing Club under Anatolie Senic.
[0:01:39] BW: That's in Michigan, for those who don't know.
[0:01:40] AH: Yeah. He would sometimes give the odd story about what life was like in the Soviet Union, because that's where he came from, and he was involved in sport there. I thought it was really interesting, because it was so unlike anything I had ever heard of growing up. When I was a little kid, I was the person when little kids play soccer, I would sit in the goalie and I'd play with dandelions. That's the kind of kid I was. To hear Anatolie's lived experiences was so fascinating to me, and I wanted to know more.
Then in 11th grade, I was given an assignment where I could write a historical essay on anything I wanted. I wanted to push the bounds and be like, “Well, it can't be anything.” I asked my history teacher, I was like, “Can I write about Soviet fencing history?” To my surprise, he said yes. I as a 17-year-old was clumsily not just going through the primary sources, but also trying to learn about physical culture and go through the historiography. Me looking back on it now, it was a mess, but I was so proud of myself to be able to do that. I had probably the most fun I'd ever had in the history class writing that paper.
[0:03:00] BW: You mentioned primary sources. What were some of the things that you initially used to create that 11th grade paper that maybe informed your research methodology later on?
[0:03:14] AH: One source that stands out to me, because this is a while ago, I interviewed Anatolie. It was not my best interview, but I did get a lot of information and it made me want to work at that skill of oral history, or interviewing, because there are a lot of coaches in the US that I do want to interview for my dissertation. Part of those skills are building that rapport and being able to, kind of like doing this podcast, being able to be friendly and have them feel they're in a safe place where they can talk and also, to be considerate of them. Really doing that and also knowing what to listen for as a historian.
[0:04:01] BW: Sure.
[0:04:02] AH: Yeah.
[0:04:03] BW: When did you feel like you became an athlete historian, fencing historian? Was there a moment when you're like, “Okay, this is more than just a project, where I'm doing maybe a little bit above and beyond what the teacher wanted. But now this is actually my passion”?
[0:04:22] AH: That would be my senior year at Wayne State. I was writing my Honors Capstone Project, and I wanted to write about the history of discrimination in American fencing from the 1700s until 1950. This was also during COVID. But I did feel like a historian, because I was able to seek out the primary sources I wanted online. Another big part of being a historian is it's not just going through these primary sources, but also through connecting it to broader trends in history. Something that I have to do in my program is I'm not just a fencing historian. I have to put my work in the stories I'm teasing out from these primary sources. I have to fit them within this broader stretch of US history, or immigration history, or US-Soviet history. That has been hard, and it's something that I can always improve on. But it's so rewarding when I have a breakthrough and I'm like, “Oh, that's why I'm reading all these books.”
[0:05:31] BW: Yeah, totally. I mean, these events aren't happening in a vacuum, right? You have to consider that context. Considering that your work touches on immigration, identity and geopolitics, like you said, is there an example of a fencing story that opens a door to a bigger American story? What's something that you like to point to that is very indicative of its time within American history?
[0:05:58] AH: Something I really enjoy coming back to is the 1956 Olympics. In the aftermath of that, a lot of Hungarian fencers came to the United States and they actually ended up settling in the Bay Area. A lot of people within that history, they know, oh, Sports Illustrated, organized a freedom press tour, basically. The context of those games in Melbourne, they happened about three weeks, or a month after the Hungarian Revolution, which for those who don't know, and this is drawing, it's good practice for me to recall this.
Basically, in response to Hungary not wanting a Soviet installed leader, they rebelled and then Stalin sent in tanks into Budapest to crush it. Then three weeks later, these Hungarian athletes had to go participate in these Olympics. A lot of them did not feel safe going back. Sports Illustrated organized this freedom press tour to basically be like, “Hey, if you guys want to tour around the United States, you can.” A lot of them after the tour were like, “Oh, this looks like a good place to live. I'm going to live here.”
It's, for me, looking at immigration, it's not just the how they got over and got in. It's how they settled and made a place for themselves, how their story became interwoven in this fabric of American history is what's really interesting to me.
[0:07:37] BW: Yeah, that's super fascinating. We're lucky in fencing to have coaches, especially who come from so many different backgrounds and countries. They might not have been born in the US, but found their way here. I just imagine, there's stories like that in dozens, if not hundreds of clubs across the country, right? It opens this whole new door. Alyssa, can you explain your dissertation? If you were to give an elevator pitch to a non-fencer, is there a one-minute version of your dissertation and what you've been studying?
[0:08:14] AH: Yeah. Basically, what I'm planning on doing for my dissertation is looking at how fencers after the collapse of the Soviet Union came to the US and found themselves within the country by finding jobs at these fencing clubs and also, looking at how some athletes, like they went to Fence at colleges in the aftermath of the Soviet collapse and how they make a place for themselves there. There's themes of identity, like how does one define themselves as Soviet and when do they identify as American? It's different for every person. I think, finding those differences in the why for each person is really interesting and how fencing serves as a path to feel at home. Because, I mean, for me, if I were to pack up and move to a new country, the first thing I would do after finding a place to live is looking for the fencing club.
[0:09:22] BW: Sure. Yeah.
[0:09:23] AH: Because it's something I know. It's something I love doing. If I'm adapting to this completely new place, I'm going to want something familiar to hang on to. That would be my reason. There's a whole bunch of different reasons. Other people could have had for seeking out these fencing clubs. I want to learn about that. I think it's really interesting.
[0:09:48] BW: I know with dissertations, you want to cover ground that other researchers haven't covered and this certainly qualifies. What makes this so niche, this topic? Why is this ground so uncovered?
[0:10:03] AH: Well, at least within academia, not a lot of people have written about fencing within the 20th century. There have been people who have written about fencing in the early modern era with the French and Italian dueling schools. Also, the fact that it is fencing. Within the field of sports history, there aren't a lot, if any others, other than me who are doing academic fencing history. There are other non-academic historians whose work like, I would not be here today without, like Andy Shaw and Doug Nichols. If I forget to mention someone, I'm sorry, but I'm blanking. Oh, yeah. Sarah Cass, Sarah Cass. Their work and what they have done through collecting and preserving sources, conducting oral history, my work would not be what it is today without them.
[0:11:00] BW: What are some of those other sources that are in your toolbox? I'm thinking like, magazine. I know that USA Fencing published a magazine for most of its existence. Club files, oral histories, like you said, other archives. How are you tracking these things down? What's your process?
[0:11:17] AH: My process for that is – I do use the American Fencing Magazine. I also use the other various fencing publications, like Veteran Fencers Quarterly. I try to go back through my repository, because I just did a research trip. Photographs are really helpful. Also, advertisements, looking at what was being advertised. What did people see as a need and what people saw as profitable to this fencing community. Looking at not just advertisements for fencing products, but also for camps. For instance, be an advertisement for a fencing camp in Europe and thinking about why would that be attractive to American fencers?
Also, so I went to the Bay Area this summer to do research, and I wasn't just looking at the West Coast Fencing archives. I was also looking at things in the Hoover Institute, which is a very large collection of sources from the Soviet Union and Russia. Also, looking at how people settled outside of fencing to see if fencing bucks the trend or not. Something my advisor is encouraging me to do is also to look at where they end up settling, not just the fencing club they end up at, but where they end up living, the neighborhoods, to also, really get a sense of what was life like.
[0:12:43] BW: Is there something that has really surprised you so far in your research that you weren't expecting? Obviously, you went in with a very sizable knowledge base, but as you encounter some of these sources that you went in search of, anything that has surprised you that you didn't expect?
[0:12:59] AH: Something I did not expect, and this was for a previous paper that I wrote about, how the Soviet Union got to be really good. It was my first-year paper. I called it Game Recognizes Game. I was surprised at how in the American Fencing Magazine, there was not a lot of animosity towards Soviet fencers, especially during the hotter points of the Cold War. In fact, they were actually – Something that really stands out to me was a recap from the 1967 World Championships in Montreal, where there were coaches who were American coaches who were following around the Soviet coaches, asking them for advice on what to do. They would watch the Soviet coaches give saber lessons and take notes on what they were doing.
The fact that there was almost friendly relationships at times, during the Cold War when previously what we're taught is that, “Oh, the US and Soviets hated each other.” It opens up questions of who is just like, yes, there were points of tension and animosity, but were there areas where that wasn't the case? What can we benefit from looking things that not from us perspective, other than the nation state to nation state level?
[0:14:25] BW: Yeah, I really like that. Yeah, maybe leave that to the political leaders in Washington to deal with that type of thing. When we're actually out there fencing, we can be friends, even if the name on the back of our Lame is different. I think that's really interesting.
[0:14:43] AH: Yeah, exactly. Then, it was surprising at first, but then it started to click and how easily I made friends within the sport, from all over the country, it didn't matter where they came from, like the race, gender, creed. If we got on and we had fun fencing each other, we were buddies. That appreciation for if your opponent is really good, that does transcend the, “Oh, they're a Soviet.” But the American fencers watching would be like, “Wow, this guy's really good. We should do some of what they're doing, some of their techniques.” I like seeing stuff like that. Because when it's just person to person, there's a lot more of an opportunity to make a friend, rather than being dictated by political leaders.
[0:15:38] BW: Yeah. Game recognizes game, like you said. I see how you came up with the title. Obviously, you've got a lot of experience with collegiate fencing, both personally and academically. What have you learned about how universities have shaped access and identity and the sports growth in this country?
[0:15:59] AH: Yeah. My experience with Wayne State is, I think it's typical to Wayne State. Back when I was fencing, there were a mix of walk-ons, which bringing new people into the sport. They would train alongside really top-notch, world-class fencers. For instance, my freshman year, the men's captain was Ziad Elsissy. It was so cool just getting to train with him, even for that one year. He was very nice. He also, he seemed like a superstar, in the way he carried himself.
To have that and a figure like that, training alongside people who are walk-ons and people who had experienced fencing, it didn't matter. There wasn't any snobbery, or people being like, “Oh, I'm a better fencer than you. I'm going to just ignore you.” It was a group of people coming together to represent that university and to help each other out, because they were all one team. I think that's something really cool and unique about college fencing.
[0:17:11] BW: Yeah, I love that. How about some of the underrepresented groups in fencing's history? Obviously, for the longest time, this sport was dominated by white men, right? It took a while for women to be able to even fence saber, for example, which surprises some of the newer people in our sport. Obviously, the sport is becoming more racially diverse as well, which we love to see. Looking from a historical lens, what have you found about these underrepresented groups within fencing, and how maybe we've come to grips with that not so savory part of our past?
[0:17:48] AH: Yeah. The biggest barrier to entry for fencing for a lot of history and is a bit of a barrier now is class. Within US history, class can be a way to restrict people of certain racial backgrounds. This isn't unique to fencing. This was actually a phenomenon that can be recorded across a lot of athletic clubs in the 20th century, where they would be deliberate in restricting things based on class and race. Eventually, those racial barriers went away, but the class barriers were still in place.
I think that initiatives, like the Peter Westbrook Foundation have been really instrumental in closing that gap of underrepresentation. Something that I haven't seen a lot of is indigenous representation in the sport. Because there are a couple indigenous history scholars at my university and David Beck and Rosalyn LaPier, if you're watching this, hi. Sometimes Dave Beck, he’ll come up to me and be like, “Oh, how is fencing going? Are there any – is the Haudenosaunee nation sending anyone?” I'm like, “No, I'm sorry.” I mean –
[0:19:08] BW: It's interesting. Yeah.
[0:19:10] AH: But it's something that's also not as considered. Here I go, every time I discuss something, I get a new idea for something to add to my dissertation, or a project, and then I remember, I can't do everything. But that's also, why I want to put myself out there and hopefully, other people get into it, get into doing fencing history, so they can pick up the torch and fill those gaps that I make.
[0:19:41] BW: Yeah. There's thousands of potential routes you could take through this giant archive, some of which hasn't even been uncovered yet. Might be sitting in some club’s closet right in the very back in a box, and this is a secret, not secret, but it's a process to unlock. That brings me to my next question, which is about some of the sources that you've come across, the physical items. Is there something that stands out to you as a favorite moment? Like a postcard that you found, or a roster, or a footnote in some magazine, or caption that you were like, “Oh, wow. It'd be very easy to have just overlooked this and this changed the game for me in some small way.”
[0:20:21] AH: Yeah. I think my favorite source that I've come across is actually, it was in the University of Illinois libraries. It was a Soviet fencing manual published in 1958. I found it my first year and I was also a first-year Russian student. I went up to my Russian teacher and she helped me to translate it.
[0:20:46] BW: Cool.
[0:20:47] AH: In it, I was actually able to find out a lot about how the Soviet Union got to be really good within the 20th century. It turns out, they learned a lot from the Hungarians. They did a training camp with them and would follow them around and be like, “Tell me everything I'm doing wrong in great detail.” Sometimes my Russian teacher, she would be like, “Oh, this like is typical state propaganda. We don't have to translate it.” I'm like, there could be something interesting there. What does the state think it's important to say to get this published? Are there any moments within this book that deviate from that, or contradict what's mandated by the state? There was so much, and it was a blast to translate that, because a lot of questions and thoughts that I had growing up and through undergrad and my master's were answered by that book.
[0:21:50] BW: That's cool. It was just sitting in the library. You might have been the first to look at it in decades, right?
[0:21:57] AH: Yeah.
[0:21:58] BW: That's cool. All right, so for our next section, let's talk about how others can get involved. Because you said it earlier, you shouldn't be the only fencing historian out there. You're not. Andy Shaw and a bunch of the others that you mentioned have done a great job non-academically, but still, but preserving and promoting the history of fencing. George Mason is another one who has made a big archive of fencing results through the years and been very eager to share it with others coming to NACs, and showing some of his collection. Back to my original question, what does being a fencing historian actually look like, for people who are interested in that? What's a week in the life of Alyssa Hirsch, when you're doing a lot of research?
[0:22:41] AH: When I'm doing a lot of research, I guess, or maybe because now are a lot of reading for preliminary exams, which are the big make or break for a person in a history PhD program. It's doing readings for that. I'm also TA’ing, and also doing research on the side, collecting like, okay, who do I want to interview? What are going to be some good spots to go to? Also, going through my own database of what I've already collected and done research on for, okay, what can I take more notes on? Is there something I overlooked?
Then I try and cap off my days at four. I start early, I end at four, so that way I can get home, hang out with my pet birds and cook dinner and relax. On Thursdays, I go to the fencing club. I like talking with the older guys there. For anyone who's starting, who is interested in fencing history, talk to your coaches and ask them, what was fencing like back in the day? Sometimes the stories they tell can lead you into really interesting research avenues. Like for me, just hearing the stories from Anatolie actually shaped my entire career path. Thank you, Anatolie. Genuinely, this helped me find my life's passion. I would not be here today without Anatolie. Thank you, coach.
[0:24:22] BW: That's terrific. You touched on the next question, which is what advice you have for those aspiring historians? It sounds like, the first one is start at your own club, right? Talk to the individuals there, those who have been around the sport for a long time and might have some interesting stories. How else might people find material that allows them to dig into the history of this sport?
[0:24:47] AH: There is a website called American Fencing Archive, and that has a lot of digital issues of the American Fencing Magazine. A lot of my research was drawing from those issues and just reading through them. Sometimes to learn about fencing history, you have to read books that aren't about fencing history. Even some general sports history books, because they can serve as starting off points for, okay, this is a broad overview of what sports were like. For instance, Melvin Adelman's A Sporting Time talks about sports history in New York during the 1800s and talks about modernization, how these athletic clubs modernized their sport.
Then you can use it as a starting off point to be like, okay, if I wanted to do research, I can go to these clubs in New York City. Now, not every club might have historical material, like stacks of books and articles, but sometimes the posters that they have, that are hanging up on walls, because at Renaissance Fencing Club, when I went there, there would be big posters of certain events and signatures from people from the club who participated in that. That's really valuable.
[0:26:09] BW: That's cool.
[0:26:10] AH: Because what it shows is who was associated with this club, and how does the club honor them, and how they contributed to the club. You combine that with talking to people, as well as reading the articles, and connecting it back to US history. That's how you do fencing history.
[0:26:32] BW: That's great. Yeah, it goes back to what you were saying, that if you have a specific time period you want to focus on with fencing history, you need to understand what's happening in American and world history, even the sports context, like you said. I think that's really smart.
Let's finish with our quick hit section. I've got five quick questions for you that we can have a little bit of fun as we wrap up here. The first one is, let's say, that time machines were invented. Is there a bout, or event, or location from fencing history that you would visit for a day? What would that be?
[0:27:07] AH: I would have to say, there was an instance at the 1956 Melbourne Games, where this one Soviet general who was in charge of sports pop off, he had a luncheon inside of a commandeered Hungarian warship. I think there was an article about it in the US fencing magazine, where actually, my Zotero is too cold. I can't find the exact author, but it was written about in the captain's report how they went to this luncheon, and some of the Polish fencers who were there were uncomfortable. To be in that room, that's like a huge stoop hot about to bubble over of tensions, and seeing how –
Also, another reason why I study fencing history is because it's a good way to see how ordinary people are affected by these big world events. Being able to be in that room and see how these people who just wanted to come Melbourne and fence, have been training for this, or grappling with these geopolitical issues, I think it would be very uncomfortable. But I think it would be really valuable for research just to see and get a sense for the vibe there.
[0:28:28] BW: Be a fly on the wall in there. That's great. Okay, question two, if you were to be able to communicate to every club owner out there, even those who used to own a club that maybe doesn't exist anymore, what would you tell them about how to preserve all the material that they have and make it more accessible and make sure it's around for the next generation of researchers as well?
[0:28:50] AH: What I would advise is digitizing your sources and putting them into a cloud. That being said, digitization is a really lengthy and expensive process. A lot of archivists at University of Illinois have complained about having to digitize everything. But if you don't have a lot of stuff, I would recommend digitizing it, and have it uploaded to a website, but also have a backup in case that website gets taken down. That is what I have. Someone who's really good at archiving. It was Andy Shaw, but also Doug Nichols, when I went, he was very organized and methodical with how he preserved the sources, and I liked seeing that.
[0:29:42] BW: Yeah. Okay, question three. What one object from fencing history would you put in a glass case and make sure that everybody had a chance to see it? It can be something that you've actually seen yourself, or that you just know is out there somewhere.
[0:30:01] AH: I would probably put a trophy from the Martini and Rossi Cup. That was a quintessential World Cup event for a while. I think having that piece of physical culture would be really good to preserve and showcase.
[0:30:19] BW: I like that. Okay, number four, when you're deep into research mode, what kind of music are you listening to? Is it silent, or how do you focus on that? Because having done research myself, I know that you got to just lock in and be immersed for several hours.
[0:30:37] AH: Lately, I've been doing is I just go on to YouTube and I look up classical music for studying.
[0:30:42] BW: Oh, nice.
[0:30:43] AH: Or, I put on, you know the one song on The Incredibles soundtrack? Life's Incredible Again?
[0:30:49] BW: I think so. Yeah.
[0:30:50] AH: Like, [inaudible 0:30:50].
[0:30:52] BW: Oh, yes. I didn't know it was called that. But yes.
[0:30:54] AH: Yeah. I put that on a loop. It makes me feel happy and it makes me feel like I'm chugging right along.
[0:31:03] BW: That's great.
[0:31:03] AH: Or if I'm writing, sometimes I'll put on music from the time period I'm writing about. If I'm writing about something from the 80s, I'll put on 80s synth wave. Or the 50s, I'll put on 50s swing music, or something.
[0:31:19] BW: Get you in the right vibe.
[0:31:21] AH: Yeah.
[0:31:23] BW: That's great. Okay, last one. Who would you invite to dinner, someone from history, a fencer, coach, anybody who you'd love to invite to dinner, and as a bonus question, what would you ask them about? What's the first thing you'd want to ask?
[0:31:39] AH: Oh, my gosh. Helene Meyer. For those who don't know Helene Meyer, she was a fencer from Germany. Half Jewish. She won her first gold medal at the Amsterdam Games in 1928, and she was 17. Then in 1932, she goes to the Los Angeles Games. She gets news that her boyfriend died in an accident. That affects her performance and she finishes fifth. She then lives in California for a bit and is teaching at schools around the Bay Area, I think Mills College, I believe. Yeah, yeah, Mills. While she's teaching, the Nazis are rising to power. Hitler actually revokes her citizenship, because she's half Jewish.
As it gets closer to the 1936 games, the Nazis are scrambling, because they've gotten rid of all their Jewish athletes. For instance, there was a Jewish high jumper. She cleared a jump that would have gotten Germany the gold medal and the Nazis were like, “Oh, not good enough. You're off the team.” The International Olympic Committee is like, “Hey, Germany. We noticed there have been some troubling things happening with Jewish people. If you don't have at least one Jewish person on your team, you cannot host these games.”
Hosting these games was very important for Nazi Germany, because hosting an Olympics means you can prove your national superiority on the world stage and assert yourself as a dominant global superpower. The Nazis reached out to Helene and they said, “Will you fence for us?” Because this was before the era where you could fence for a country that you had citizenship with. It had to be your birth country that you represented in Olympics. Helene agreed. I guess, having her over for dinner, I'd want to ask her what was going through her head when she decided that. Was she reading outpouring from the Jewish community? What did she have connection to that?
Historians, they can make inferences about what she may have thought, but I'd want to hear it straight from her. Also, what life was like after, because she got the silver medal in 1936. The Nazis are like, “All right. You didn't win. Bye.” She returned to the US, and eventually ended up living back in Germany, where she died fairly young, I want to say, maybe in her 40s, or 50s.
[0:34:43] BW: That's super interesting.
[0:34:46] AH: Yeah. I've struggled with trying to understand her for a while. Part of that as a historian is to recognize that the historical actors you study are people. Yeah. For instance, sometimes I'll be like, “Oh, I want to eat healthier.” Then I drive to McDonald's and I get a quarter pounder. A historian looking at that would be like, “She said she wants to eat healthy. Why did she do that? That doesn't make any sense.” But it's like, people don't make sense all the time.
[0:35:14] BW: People are people. Yeah.
[0:35:18] AH: Learning about her has been a real – a phenomenal lesson in recognizing that people are people throughout history.
[0:35:31] BW: I think that's really interesting. That's a great place to leave it, I think. Alyssa, thank you so much for opening the doors to fencing and the side of fencing a lot of us never see, which is often these stories hiding in boxes and basements and Internet archives. To our listeners, if today sparked an idea, ask your club what they might have, if you can help them organize some of that, a great service project idea for high schoolers out there, see what's sitting around. Maybe if you have a research assignment in school, make it about fencing, right? Like Alyssa did, and you can see where you might end up. That's how our sport remembers the past as we move into this exciting future.
Then also, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow First to 15 and leave us a quick rating, or review. It helps more fencers, and maybe even some future fencing historians find our podcast. I'm Bryan Wendell. Alyssa Hirsch, thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you at the next tournament, I'm sure.
[0:36:27] AH: All right. Thank you so much. Have a good one.
[0:36:29] BW: Thanks.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:36:31] BW: Thanks for listening to First of 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. If you like this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating, or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the strip. Bye.
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