Our guest is Aleks Ochocki, Team USA’s women’s saber national coach!
In this episode of First to 15, we're joined by Aleks Ochocki, Team USA’s women’s saber national coach.
Before taking the reins of our talented women’s saber program, Aleks was the assistant saber coach at Notre Dame, where he coached multiple team and individual NCAA champions.
Aleks is also the head coach and founder of the Advance Fencing and Fitness Academy in New Jersey.
And we haven’t even talked about his career as a fencer. As an athlete, Aleks won a national title in every age group starting from Youth-12 all the way through seniors.
He’s a proud Nittany Lion, having graduated from Penn State, where he won the NCAA Individual Saber Championship in 2009 and 2012.
In this conversation, we ask Aleks about his career so far, his advice for saber fencers and where he sees our women’s saber program going in the next several years.
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First to 15: The Official Podcast of USA Fencing
Host: Bryan Wendell
Cover art: Manna Creations
Theme music: Brian Sanyshyn
EPISODE 21
[INTRODUCTION]
[00:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA fencing. I'm your host Bryan Wendell. And in this show, you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting and insanely talented people in this sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. Whether you're an Olympian, or Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:00:40] BW: Okay. It is recording. Okay. Today's guest is Aleks Ochocki, team USA's Women's Saber national coach. Before taking the reins of our talented women's saber program, Aleks was the assistant saber coach at Notre Dame where he coached multiple team and individual NCAA champions. He's also the head coach and founder of the Advanced Fencing and Fitness Academy in New Jersey.
And we haven't even talked about his career as a fencer, which was incredible. As an athlete, he won a national title in every age group starting from Y-12, youth 12, all the way to seniors. He's also a proud Nittany Lion. He graduated from Penn State. And while there, won the NCAA Individual Saber Championship in 2009 and 2012. We're really excited to have Aleks here to ask him about his career so far. Some of his advice for saber fencers. And of course, where he sees our women's saber program going in the next several years. Welcome to the podcast, Alex.
[00:01:36] AO: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:37] BW: Yeah, this is great. Can you take us to the moment when you first picked up a saber? Obviously, people know about your success. But where did it all kind of start? What was your introduction to saber and to fencing?
[00:01:49] AO: Yeah. I think I was pretty lucky with how I found fencing. I did it kind of as like a free Saturday class that was just next door to karate when I was little. And my first coach, Janusz Mlynek, who is retired now. But I think he's probably arguably one of the best youth coaches that there was. I mean, he's coached – started so many top athletes, national team members, Olympians and whatnot. I was really lucky to find him as kind of my first coach. And he really put the kind of the love and the passion of fencing in me. And, yeah. I mean, from the second that I tried fencing with him, I was hooked. It's been a long career after that.
[00:02:37] BW: Sure. Was it saber right away for you? Did you know that that was it?
[00:02:42] AO: I mean, he specialized in saber. I think maybe one time we might have messed around with epee. But saber was definitely the main weapon and definitely most appealing to me.
[00:02:51] BW: Yeah, and obviously it turned out to be the right decision, right? Because you had a lot of success including at an early age. And when I hear that, I'm always thinking, "Well, is there the risk of peaking early?" Especially in saber where it seems like that youthfulness, it isn't required. But it certainly can be an asset. But you didn't peak early. You just peaked and stayed at the top. What was like the secret to that continued success for you?
[00:03:16] AO: I think a lot of it was the right coaching, I would say from my first coach to my coach that coached me the longest, Yury Gelman. Just right coaching. A lot of the environment that I was in, top athletes, Olympians around. And just everyone just pushing to kind of be the best. The kind of complacency that the results are enough was never really there and just kind of self-motivation to want to be the best. And like my Idols that I see at practice on the Olympic stage. Just being around those type of people and seeing their drive was just kind of – is what kept me going. Kept me pushing.
[00:03:57] BW: And obviously, people started to take notice. And that means college recruiters as well. And so, we mentioned Penn State where you got a full scholarship. Can you tell us what the recruiting process was like for you? What went well other than obviously that they wanted you on the team? But is there anything also that you would have maybe done differently when you were looking at your college options?
[00:04:20] AO: I mean, I think I was pretty set on Penn State from a pretty early age. I mean, I think I fell in love with the school, the campus and the coaches when I was – I don't know. Maybe 11, 12-years-old when I went for like a youth tournament up there when they used to host it. I think it was always kind of set that that's where I wanted to go.
I love the big school football team, all that. And not to mention, I mean, who's one of the powerhouse programs in fencing. It kind of seemed a perfect fit. And at the time, I was kind of training most of my career in New York. I kind of wanted to get away at the time from New York City because I kind of just associated that only with practice. And I wanted to get the full college experience.
But what would I change differently? I mean, I don't think I would have changed where I went. But I definitely think that I probably should have at least explored other schools, at least visited. Not that I would have went there but just to see how different schools operate. How the programs run? And just in hindsight for me now as a coach and as a college coach as opposed to as an athlete and what I wanted from my college experience, I knew that Penn State was kind of the perfect fit for me.
[00:05:36] BW: Yeah, there is kind of some risk with putting all your proverbial eggs in one basket. Obviously, you had a lot of talent. You probably had your pick of schools. But like you said, it's healthy to explore. And so, is that kind of your advice for a 15, 16, 17-year-old fencer who has college on their radar? College fencing on their radar?
[00:05:57] AO: Absolutely. I think that everybody should see what's out there. And not necessarily maybe that you're going to pick another school. But so, you're sure that this is the place you want to be and you're 100% in. And just to see what's out there. You know, different campuses. Different things that the university offers. Different things that the athletic department offers to their athletes and just to compare at the end of the day. And maybe on one of the visits, a coach. Or if you're taking a tour, they mentioned something that you didn't think of what the school does and that's something that the other school offers but maybe they don't publicize it or market it very highly. And you know that it's available and you can ask the right people for some of those resources.
[00:06:44] BW: Winning an NCAA title at Penn State, which you did twice. And I think you made the semis every year when you were fencing there. One came in 2009 and one came in 2012. It kind of bookended your career. How do you compare those two in your mind when you think back on those titles?
[00:07:03] AO: I mean, it was obviously an amazing experience representing your school and your team. The first one was very special to me. One, because NCAAs were at Penn State. And we ended up winning the team title as well. But my freshman season, I really struggled a lot with my kind of health. My knee – I had a knee surgery and a foot surgery that kind of put me out of the international competitions after the first Junior World Cup, which I did very well in and made the top eight. I basically had to put the whole international season aside because of my knee problem at the time.
We decided to hold off with the knee surgery until after NCAAs, which I literally had the surgery two days after after competing, which in retrospect obviously was a great move. It worked out well. But leading up towards the end of the season just shy of kind of regionals, I ended up breaking my foot at practice, the little practice that I did during that time to kind of help protect my knee. I had to get surgery on my foot because I broke it in a pretty weird spot that would take a while to kind of heal.
The timing of it was really bad. I ended up coming back basically a week. I got cleared like a week before regionals, which you need to qualify for NCAAs. I was lucky enough that I did end up qualifying and then maybe – I don't know. Two three weeks later, competing at NCAAs. It was a just kind of a roller coaster year for me. And then it ended obviously treating you well. Home crowd, front of your friends from school. And obviously, the team's success there that being we won at home. That was definitely the one that I had kind of never forgot and the special one. Obviously, winning a national title is always – they're all special in their own different ways. But the one winning senior year after losing twice in the semi-finals after, it was kind of a bittersweet moment to finally get back to the top spot.
[00:09:09] BW: Yeah, that's a good way to go out. And so, shortly after – so, you have a degree in sports management, which kind of explains in some respects why you decided to open your own club, Advanced Fencing and Fitness Academy in New Jersey.
A lot of young coaches, they look you know to find a spot at existing clubs. But in your case, you decided to kind of try out starting your own club. What was the rationale there? Obviously, that decision paid off as well. But what was they thinking there?
[00:09:34] AO: Yeah. After graduating, actually, I interned for the Kansas City Chiefs. I really wanted to continue working in sports and specifically in the NFL. But while I was interning there in the preseason was the London Olympics in 2012. And basically, watching the opening ceremonies, Mariel Zagunis was flag bearer, which was super exciting.
But because of that, the whole fencing team was kind of in the first row of opening ceremonies. And seeing my college roommate, Miles Chamley-Watson. nd my teammate basically from growing up from since we were younger, Daryl Homer, kind of walking through those opening ceremonies kind of give me that spark again, "You know what? Maybe I should give this thing a go to compete and really push for it."
After completing the internship, I came back and I was kind of training just full-time. I was basically coaching on the sides at different clubs just to support myself while competing. And then, again, I had another knee surgery, which was a two-part kind of procedure there.
And during that time, I didn't really know what to do. I didn't have fencing, which was kind of my outlet and in training. I was just coaching. And actually, a parent approached me and said, "Why don't you think about maybe starting your own club?"
And just happened by chance that during that time period, my town's Rec Department called me and said that they were interested in starting a rec fencing program. And that I'm the only fencer that they know. So, they figured they'd call me.
[00:11:05] BW: Right. They picked a good one.
[00:11:07] AO: Yeah. By chance, the timing was there and I decided to go forward with that. And they were great in helping me get off the ground. They gave me a space and I was able to kind of then grow the club and get some interest from other fencers or new kids to train. And it turned from two, three times per week kind of program. To, "Okay, let's do this kind of full time."
And because of that, I also figured starting a club would be great for me. Would be a good way to support myself while I continue to train. And after coming back from my fourth knee surgery, I decided I'll fence one last competition, which was Nationals and kind of go just full-time into coaching as I enjoyed it. And that's kind of what ended up happening. And I've been fortunate enough and lucky that it's been working out. And the results there have been there from some of my students. And it's just been growing as a club and as a community. And I'm just very, very lucky.
[00:12:14] BW: Yeah, the success is undeniable. But it's not a guarantee, right? Because every great fencer isn't necessarily a great coach. In your case, you were. And I have to think that part of that is the people you were coached by, right? And so, that brings me to something that I'm really fascinated about, which is the concept of like a coaching family tree in a sense. Because great coaches like you were coached by greats. And those coaches were coached by great. And on and on. So, you're kind of all connected in some really cool way. Who's on your coaching tree that you maybe would want to shout out and recognize that helped you become such a great coach?
[00:12:52] AO: Absolutely. I mean, I think first and foremost was my first coach, Janusz Mlynek. We ended up working together after I opened up the club. So, I was older and now can actually observe and see what he does and how he puts that love into young kids for fencing. He's obviously number one.
I'd say definitely probably one of the greatest coaches in the world, not just in the US, but Yuri Gelman. He's a five-time, six-time Olympic coach. And then, obviously, my college coach, Wes Glo, who was the Olympic coach for the '92 and '96 Olympics. And basically, Yuri has been the coach after that.
Basically, I've been around Olympic coaches kind of my entire career. So, I've been very lucky with that. Obviously, learned so much about fencing and kind of my vision of what fencing is. A lot is part of mainly because of Yuri. And Aki Spencer-El was the men's saber coach, as well as – was one of Yuri's students. I think Yuri's tree has – the coaching tree branches out pretty far.
And then I always kind of seek knowledge from other coaches. I was lucky enough to spend a lot of time with Ed Korfanty. He's produced multiple, multiple world champions and obviously World Olympic medalists and champions. Being around him was incredible. And then, surprisingly, a foil coach. Buckie Leach, at my time at Notre Dame. I was lucky enough to be with him on a daily basis and see how he runs his program. And he was so great and open in sharing ideas and knowledge on why he does what he does. I've been lucky. I've really been lucky. But part of it also is because I seek their kind of advice and ask the questions. And they're happy to share. Yeah, I've been blessed to be around the best coaches not just in the US but in the world.
[00:14:55] BW: Well, that's cool that you're not so locked into like your style at this point in your career. That you're not willing to still absorb what you see around you, right? Because when you're a fencer, obviously you're going to be listening to your coach if you want to have a chance of success on a strip. But even once you're a coach, it sounds like, you're still willing to take in new ideas and new information, which I think explains a lot of your success. How do you describe your coaching style? I asked this same question in a previous podcast with Natalie Dostert, the women's epee national coach. And she said, for her it's tough love. I'd love to hear what you on the women's saber side, how you describe your coaching style?
[00:15:36] AO: I mean, I'd have to go in that same direction. I'm tough when it needs to be. And I'm very playful with them when the time allows. But I guess, more importantly, they know that I always have their back and they do everything and their capacity to be the best kind of version of themselves. And I'll do everything in my power to make sure that they're supported on all ends.
Yeah, I mean, definitely very vocal. Whether it's coaching, or cheering, or whatever it may be. Maybe they tune me up. I'm not sure. I think sometimes it's hard to. But at the end of the day, the athletes know that I always have their back. And that's most important. And that kind of connection that way, that I'll always do what's right for them and for the team. And I think that's been working and that's been the biggest kind of success in that. And they trust me. If I give some kind of advice or whatnot, they're more likely to take that into account.
[00:16:35] BW: Yeah. And clearly, the success has been there. And it's been at multiple levels that you've been coaching even before taking the role as the national coach for women's saber. You've been the designated national coach at cadet, junior, senior tournaments. Even before you got the call in 2022 to become the women's saber national coach. What was that call like? What was it like getting that offer that, "Hey, we would like for you to be the top guy for a our women's saber program."
[00:17:05] AO: I mean, it was complete honor. There're so many great coaches that we have in the US with so many great athletes. There're a lot of, I guess you can say, very qualified people for the position. It's definitely a huge honor. It's obviously been a goal of mine since starting coaching to coach the national team, coach the top athletes and help everybody kind of succeed and be the best that we can. And that comes with a lot of stuff. Obviously, additional pressure considering we have a brand-new team compared to what we've had for the last couple cycles of world champions, or senior world champions I should say, and Olympic medalists, into a whole new fresh squad.
It's exciting. It's exciting because they're so young. I'm growing with them just as much. To say that they have all the answers is not true. And I'll never say that. We're both growing together. It's going well. We're making progress. And we've had some team success. And now the individual results are really coming up this season. It's just great to see.
[00:18:15] BW: The job of a national coach is really fascinating to me. Because when you're at a club, you're working with the same fencers week after week. And when you're a national coach, when you're the national coach, you're working with the fencers primarily who are at the top of the point standings leading up to that event.
If listeners don't know, essentially there's points rankings at every level; cadet, junior, senior. And the top either 12 or 20 are the ones who travel to these international tournaments. And I bring that up because it seems like that sometimes there might be some who you're really familiar with and you've been to several tournaments with. And then occasionally, someone who you maybe don't know so well and you're just starting to work with more for the first time. How do you keep all that in balance when you're at a venue and maybe it's a cadet event and there's 20 young women there? Or a senior event and there's 12? How do you keep it all in balance?
[00:19:08] AO: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is, one, seeing these athletes grow up. I mean, from all the ranks, because being at a club and having students competing against them and all that. You see them kind of develop and grow to that junior and senior level. You're around them. You kind of, for the most part, know their style. But also, I mean, you know their coaches. You know what the style of the coaches are. We have very open communication amongst the coaches. Just knowing kind of how they almost strip coach and what their kind of philosophy is. And just not being able to – I mean, not interfering with that as much and just kind of giving that that comfort to them while you're strip coaching them.
But at the end of the day, between all the camps that we do all the travel that we do, we spend a lot of time together. Just having that dialogue of certain things that certain trends that we're seeing or certain things that we need to improve as a whole, which is something that they can work on with their coaches, or at their clubs, or at the camp, or wherever. We're all kind of on the general same page. Maybe not to the minute details. But the big picture the general picture. Everybody understands kind of the system of what we're trying to do and how we're trying to solve some of these problems, tactical problems I should say, against our opponents. And obviously, of course, before team events and for world championships, we do watch videos. We discuss a lot of these things as well. Besides just working on them, we see it actually in video.
[00:20:44] BW: You as the national coach, I imagine there might be occasions where an athlete's personal coach and might not see eye to eye about how to work with a specific fencer. How do you handle those kind of maybe disagreements? Because, ultimately, you both want the fencer to win the tournament, right? Or go as far as they can in the competition. But maybe the process to get there might be a little different. Does that ever happen where there's a little bit of disagreement there? And how do you address that?
[00:21:15] AO: Yeah. I mean, occasionally it happens. But it's really not a major issue for us. Like I said, the communication is open. And at the end of the day I give the personal coaches the – I mean, I guess the responsibility of training their athlete the way that they think is the best. Obviously, like you said, I mean, it's in their best interest and they want them to succeed as well. And I'm not trying to interfere with that by any means. We discuss certain things. If they take into account or not, that I don't know. But we definitely have those discussions. And ultimately, their personal coaches is the one who has that final decision how they're going to train at the club. Whether we're at a camper or at a competition, that's more on my end. But when they're away from the national team setting, their coach is the boss.
[00:22:07] BW: That makes sense. Yeah, that seems like a healthy dynamic then. Let's talk about the team itself. And specifically, the senior team, like we alluded to earlier, there's just so much talent and depth. A lot of young talent as well. I mean, there's [inaudible 00:22:20], Maia Chamberlain, Elizabeth Tartakovsky, Tatiana Nazlymov, Siobhan Sullivan, Zoe Kim. I mean, you could go on and on down the list. Where do you see the talent of the team as it stands here in 2023?
[00:22:36] AO: I think we're definitely one of the most talented teams. We're young, which I think is a benefit. Obviously, sometimes some of the results that we're having is just a lack of experience being new to those settings. I mean, everybody you just mentioned have been top cadet or juniors internationally. They're at the top of their game. They have been there before. They have World Championship medals. I believe all of them. And individual. Not just team. They're super talented group. They're just young.
And the last season was the first time that majority of that team traveled to a senior World Cup. We had some of the Elizabeth and Maia who were around for the quad before. And they went to Tokyo as a kind of sparring partners. They got that experience in seeing what it's like. And they're the oldest of the group.
Last season as well, having Eliza Stone, who's been on the senior circuit for a long time around. They kind of had a nice kind of mentorship and introduction to that level and what's going on. Yeah. I mean, with everything, there's growing pains. But they're all super smart, intelligent women athletes. They go to the top schools. And it's just a matter of time. And that's why we started with camps domestically and moving into more international camps so they get more of that international feel. And the results have been kind of showing that.
I mean, individually, we're beating top-ranked people in the world. The results aren't, "Oh, it was a good bracket." Something lined up. No. They're beating top fencers in the world, Olympians, world medalists, world champions individually in a 15-touch battle, which is very, very difficult especially considering how much experience some of them have.
I think the future is very bright. We just got to make sure that they continue to keep developing, continue to train, not burnout, not get sidetracked with life. We'll be very strong leading up to Paris and to LA as well.
[00:24:44] BW: Yeah that's actually a great segue, because thinking about LA makes me think about some of our cadet fencers. And as we're recording this, you're getting ready to head off to a cadet event with 20 of the best cadet women's saber fencers in the country. Talk a little bit about the depth, too. Because at the senior level, there's a broad set of talent there that we just discussed. But there's a lot of depth, too. These women that we're talking about at the senior level, they're going to be challenged pretty soon by some of these cadets who are going to say, "Hey, I want the spot that you have right now."
[00:25:17] AO: That's what it's all about. I mean, that's that push from the younger generation. I mean, we see it from the cadets pushing into the juniors even internationally traveling. Then the juniors into seniors, which right now are seniors are majority juniors from the tribal squad, which is also a great thing because the longevity kind of.
But it's great. I mean, they'll get their opportunities and it's just a matter of who can capitalize on that and who won't shy away from the big stage and from the moment to make that jump and push somebody off or challenge someone for a spot. And that's the beauty of our our system, that it's based on points and it's not just selection. There's no favorites. It's how you do individually. And if the results are there, you make it. And everybody has to continue to push and train hard and have the results in order to stay there. It's a beautiful thing.
[00:26:11] BW: Yeah, that's what's so interesting about the point system, is it doesn't know your name. It just knows your results, right? You've got to show up and that's how you get to the top. That's well said.
I'm interested in hearing from you as a coach. And I know that people listening are like, "Well, if we've got the best women's saber coach here on the podcast, let's ask for a mini lesson of sorts." If you had a half hour with a saber fencer who you hadn't worked with before, what would you do? What would you work on? What would you try to instill in that individual to maybe give them something to work on and improve their game?
[00:26:47] AO: Yeah. If it's only going to be one lesson, definitely wouldn't focus too much on technique or things like that just because you're not really going to change that in 30 minutes. Muscle memory. A lot would be just more on kind of the tactical side of it. The vision and the thought process that I have that maybe something there aligns with how they see it. And they can implement it and understand a different point of view. And basically, how to solve a problem multiple different ways. That would be my biggest focus, just on the mental side, on the tactical side. And hopefully as well, I think that some of that will have a much more of an impact quicker than if we did kind of a regular lesson, which I would do with my athletes that are training consistently.
[00:27:42] BW: Sure. That makes sense. Yeah, there's so much to that mental game. When you're at a knack or an international event and you watch fencers you aren't coaching at any level, youth, cadet, junior, senior, whatever, are there mistakes that you say that you're like, "Man, I would just love to have a magic wand and just like correct this one thing that would maybe result in an extra touch or two every bout."
[00:28:08] AO: Yeah, I think every saber coach at least will definitely always tell you that if the athletes would do smaller steps sometimes, it would be more beneficial to them. It's kind of a general one. But ideally, we want to make sure that they're always kind of in balance and able to capitalize on any situation that's there but being in a good position. So, balance.
Obviously, the tactical side. But a lot of times, at the end of the day, we give them the tools and it's kind of their job to use those tools how they see fit. And like we said, how they want to solve the problem. Not necessarily how I want them to. I can give them the options. But ultimately, it's their decision because they're out on the strip.
[00:28:52] BW: This might seem like a noob question because I've never fenced saber myself. And so, are you starting each point with a tactic in mind? "Okay, here's how I'm going to try to score a touch on this specific point. And if that works, then I might try it again or I might bring out the next thing in my toolkit." Put me in the mask there and tell me how you're approaching going up to the line and getting ready to start a point.
[00:29:19] AO: Yeah, absolutely. Because it happens so fast, majority of the time, I want to say always, the athletes, or myself when I was an athlete, are going up to the line with a plan with, what their action is going to be. The way I tell the kids is, basically, they have an action, which is the main thing that they want to do based on a previous touch or what they kind of think their opponent might switch on them. And then they have their secondary, which is a reaction. If that situation isn't actually there, they have to be able to react in the proper way.
I like to tell them their action and then their reaction, which the reaction sometimes could just be the right timing, the right distance. But ideally, they're going in with some sort of a plan. Because if they're just going to watch and try to capitalize only on their opponent's mistakes, it could be a pretty tough day especially with how athletic saber fencing is now and how fast these kids are.
[00:30:16] BW: And then the chess game comes in. Just because something works one time, now your opponent knows what you've got. And so, you can't go to that well again and again I would imagine, right?
[00:30:29] BW: Most cases, no. There are obviously some instances where your opponent doesn't change, depending on who you're fencing and sometimes even from certain countries. I mean, our system is so unique that we have so many different coaches and so many different styles of our athletes where a lot of the international fencers all trained with the same coach and trained double the amount of time that we do.
Some of them are like robots and they just can't change. That's just what they're programmed to do. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Kind of depending on who we're fencing. But, yeah, majority of the times you do have to alternate it. You can't just do the same thing over and over.
[00:31:11] BW: That's so interesting, because I never thought of it like that. Someone can't say, "Okay, I'm fencing against an American. I know they're going to fence like this." Because there is no one style of every Team USA fencer is what it sounds like I'm hearing.
[00:31:28] AO: Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's 100% what it is. The only thing is you can compare if they're from a certain coach, then maybe there's the same style. But generally speaking, everybody kind of has their own style, their own twist on the sport. That's what makes it so difficult to fence against us. We're not all doing the same thing. You can't game plan for one American the same as all of them.
In a team event, you have to game plan for every single one of us individually. Where as opposed to some of the other countries, we just need a general plan because they're all fencing the same style.
[00:32:01] BW: Yeah, that's really interesting. I'd also like to talk about video. Because nowadays you can find almost any major bout online. And you can watch it again and again in slow motion. If you're sitting down and watching film with a fencer, what exactly are you looking for? What insight can you gain from watching that video?
[00:32:26] AO: Yeah. For analyzing opponents more specifically, then first I'm looking for what the intention of the opponent was. Sometimes they don't score the point. Maybe it's at the end of the strip or whatnot. But what was their immediate intention and how they wanted to score the touch? That's the first thing. Second of all, we try to look for patterns. Whether if someone is taking parries all the time, are they using the same setup? Are they using the same footwork to do that parry? And, yeah, basically just looking for those patterns.
And then if we don't find maybe necessarily that, then we look for patterns in their choices of action. Are they taking a parry? And after they do take a parry, do they attack? Or they do attack in preparation? Do they come back to something? Then we look for a cycle kind of their actions. It's kind of a progression through. Sometimes we get that information earlier. Sometimes we have to dive a little bit deeper and analyze a little bit harder. But for the most part, it's all about patterns. That's what we're kind of looking for.
[00:33:29] BW: And are you also watching Team USA athletes to make sure that they're not falling into patterns?
[00:33:35] AO: Absolutely. Vice versa is same thing.
[00:33:40] BW: Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:40] AO: If some thing is not working, why is it not working? Was the setup wrong? Maybe it's a technical issue. Maybe they're leaning forward too much so they're not able to transition or see something because they're a little bit closer. Or the timing was wrong. Whatever the case may be. We're also doing it for our athletes as well.
At competitions, we don't necessarily do that because we can't really change that immediately. That's something more we have to do through practice. Pre-competition stuff, we don't look that much on that side of it. More about what our opponents do and kind of using what we're good at to be what they do.
[00:34:16] BW: Yeah, that makes sense. At some point, trying to make a drastic change the night before competition seems like it might not going to work, right?
[00:34:23] AO: It's not going to work.
[00:34:24] BW: Yeah. Okay. Aleks, before I let you go, I'd love to just kind of know from a high-level standpoint a very simple question. But I'd love to hear the answer. Why do you love coaching? Why do you like being a saber coach?
[00:34:38] AO: I think, one, it's exciting. I mean, it's obviously the fastest of the weapons. It's the strategy behind it. All weapons have their own strategies obviously. But the strategy behind it is what kind of keeps me going. And I kept saying, solving different problems. And having athletes be able to do that.
But at the end of the day, it's seeing kind of the progress that athletes make, whether from younger, to older national team, whatever. Just kind of seeing how they develop and how they – when they can execute certain things better with time and repetition and just kind of seeing the fruits of their labor kind of come together, it makes it fun. And they gain confidence in themselves and they learn things about themselves that they can carry on into college and after college, into their career. Just giving them that kind of self-confidence and, really, problem solving skills to keep going. And I definitely have to say, as a saber coach, I definitely prefer it because our events are much shorter.
[00:35:43] BW: That is true. I love that. Okay. Well, we'll leave it there. That is great. Thank you so much, Aleks, for being our guest. And this is a real treat to get to talk to you. I know you're off to another coaching adventure. So, good luck to you and the Women's Saber Team this season.
[00:35:56] AO: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
[OUTRO]
[00:35:59] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks.
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Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell. And I hope to see you real soon out on the strip. Bye.