In this episode, we're thrilled to welcome Akhi Spencer-El, a USA Fencing Hall of Famer and Team USA’s national weapons coach for men’s saber.
Our guest is Akhi Spencer-El, a USA Fencing Hall of Famer and Team USA’s national weapons coach for men’s saber. Appointed in January 2022, Akhi made history as USA Fencing’s first Black national coach.
But his accomplishments go far beyond that important milestone. His résumé is teeming with accolades: three-time junior saber national champion, two-time senior saber national champion, former world No. 1 in junior saber, and a 2000 Olympian.
He’s also an experienced mentor, having coached at the Pan American Games, Columbia University, and the 2016 Olympics in Rio, where he guided a team that included Ibtihaj Muhammad.
This summer at the 2023 FIE Fencing World Championships, Akhi and the men's saber team achieved their best-ever finish, capturing an individual gold medal for Eli Dershwitz and a team bronze for the U.S.
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First to 15: The Official Podcast of USA Fencing
Host: Bryan Wendell
Cover art: Manna Creations
Theme music: Brian Sanyshyn
EPISODE 36
[INTRO]
[00:00:01] BW: Hello, and welcome to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. I'm your host, Bryan Wendell, and in this show you're going to hear from some of the most inspiring, interesting, and insanely talented people in the sport we all love. First to 15 is for anyone in the fencing community and even for those just checking out fencing to see what it's all about. So, whether you're an Olympian or a Paralympian, a newcomer, a seasoned veteran, a fencing parent, a fan, or anyone else in this wonderful community, this podcast is for you. With that, let's get to today's episode. Enjoy.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:00:40] BW: Today, we are thrilled to welcome Akhi Spencer-El, a USA Fencing Hall of Famer and Team USA's weapons coach for men's sabre. When he was appointed in January 2022, Akhi made history as USA Fencing's first black national coach, but his accomplishments go far beyond that important milestone. His resume is teeming with accolade; three-time Junior Sabre National Champion, two-time Senior Sabre National Champ, former world number one in Junior Sabre, and a 2000 Olympian.
Then he's also an experienced mentor and coach. He's coached at the Pan American Games, at Columbia University, at the Olympics. He guided a team that included Ibtihaj Muhammad, someone whose name is well known in fencing circles. Then this past summer, I was lucky enough to witness the 2023 FIE Fencing World Championships where Akhi and the men's sabre team achieved what many say as their best finish ever, capturing an individual gold for Eli Dershwitz and then a team bronze for Team USA.
So, Akhi, congrats and welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:38] AS: Thank you. Appreciate it. It’s an honor.
[00:01:40] BW: So, I mean, we got to start with Peter Westbrook, and a lot of people who know fencing know his name. He's an icon, and he also played a crucial role in your life. I understand that before you met him, you were actually into baseball, right? Can you tell us about that initial meeting and what you maybe remember from meeting that icon of fencing?
[00:01:58] AS: Yes. I was into baseball, and I had this dream of on playing on the Yankees. That was my favorite team. How we met was his girlfriend was a really good friend of my mother’s, getting more kids to be involved in the program. I was one of the ones that she brought up. So, she went to my mom and tried to convince her that there was this fencing program going on, and it was going to be great.
She didn't want me to be a part of it at first. You know what I mean? She was just like, “Fencing, what is that?” She didn’t know what fencing was. Neither did I. Finally, she's took me down for just a try, just one Saturday. Of course, I was resistant because I didn't want anybody to touch my baseball. As soon as I walked in the door, I didn't like it. I’m like, “No, not for me. I’m not doing it.” That was that for a little bit. Then, she took me down again, and she was like, “Well, this is what's not happening. When baseball season's over, you're not hanging out with your friends, you're not sleeping in late in the summertime, and you're going to be doing something. This seems to be something that is happening all year round. So, we're going to give this a try.”
[00:03:00] BW: So, when you think back, was there a moment where you realized, “Okay, I may not make the Yankees roster, but I could make the Olympics with this fencing thing.” Do you remember when you realized, “I'm actually kind of good at this.”
[00:03:11] AS: Yes. What really hooked me was I was a huge fan of the Olympics, huge fan of the Olympics. Track and field, gymnastics, all the running sports. I love those sports. That was another dream I had. I didn't know at the time fencing was in the Olympic Games. I knew that baseball was kind of there, and I was like, “Well, maybe I can get involved with baseball.” So that was the hook for me.
Also, I started making some new friends. I had a lot of baseball friends and friends that I used to hang out with. But these fencing friends were new. They were different. Everyone seemed like they had a goal. Everyone seemed like they had something that they were working towards and not just fencing either. It was like better schools. I didn't really didn't know much at the time, but it just felt like I was in a good environment when I went to fencing. I didn't like being hit with the weapon. I didn't understand it at the time.
But I did like the people that I was working with. I like, of course, Peter Westbrook. All these men that I started to meet who were accomplished, all these Olympians like Westbrook, Bob Cottingham, Mika’il Sankofa. They were all in one room, teaching what they knew to a bunch of kids who looked like me, young kids from the inner cities. Me growing up in Harlem and being around other kids from Brooklyn and stuff like that. We were never exposed to anything like that. So that was another thing that kind of piqued my interest was how much these guys, these accomplished Olympians cared about me as a kid and the other kids around me.
[00:04:36] BW: Then eventually, you're able to kind of take your fencing success to the coaching level, which is a leap that not everybody can make or chooses to make. When did you get a sense that coaching might be in the cards for you after your competitive career was over?
[00:04:52] AS: You know who kind of really pulled my interest in coaching was Keeth Smart. Keeth Smart was my Olympic teammate in 2000 in Sydney, and one of the most accomplished fencers in the world. It’s amazing. All the things that he's done, and I used to go to the tournaments and help him. When I would get knocked out of the competition, I would kind of coach him through it as a teammate. I don’t know if you remember this, but one day, he told me he could look into coaching. That just stuck with me. But, of course, I never thought that. I was like, “Well, there's no American coaches out there.” This was before I met Bucky. This is way before. American don’t coach. All the coaches in the world are not American. That's how I started getting a little bit of interest in.
[00:05:35] BW: Yes, that's a good point. An American-born coach at the time, you just didn't see many of them, and you're paving the way for that. How do you feel like you created your coaching style? Because, obviously, as a fencer, you would have, I imagine, encountered every style from the more calm and measured to some of the more extreme in-your-face styles. How did you cultivate your own style?
[00:05:58] AS: Yes. So, I just took a little bit of everyone that I've ever worked with. To name a few, I mean Ed Korfanty, Yury Gelman, Zoran Tulum, [inaudible 00:06:07] on the World level. I always picked their brain and took a little bit from it. Then, of course, you come up with your own thing. You take what you like, and you leave what you don't. That's how people progress. I did that. Of course, I traveled a lot. I traveled to World Cups when I was just a personal coach, being able to watch and see what the directors are calling, what the refs are calling. I took all of that to kind of develop my own style.
[00:06:31] BW: It resonates with the athletes too. But it occurs to me that as a national coach, you get men who you've worked with for a long time, and then there's some who maybe, you don't know as well. How do you build that trust with a fencer that you haven't coached personally, but all of a sudden, they say, “Hey, this person is on the team,” and you're their coach now? How do you start to build that trust?
[00:06:52] AS: Again, trust is the key word. I would say, first, I have to know them. I have to know them. They have to know me also. They have to know that they can trust me, that I won't do anything to hurt their performance and success, even though I have my own students on the team. Trust is the biggest important thing for me and then to know what kind of fencer they are because I can't tell them to do something.
To an extent, I'm teaching them. But at this point, when they hit the level where we're in the World state, they pretty much know how to fence. There's no way to be in that level or being top of five, and they not know how to compete with rest of the world. [inaudible 00:07:23] here and there, knowing what the calls are being made and knowing how to adjust your fencing to what the calls are. The thing I like about my team is everyone's different. Everyone's different. I'm listening to another podcast with [inaudible 00:07:37], and he was talking about how the US Team, we're all different because we all have different styles. He was so true about that. So, you may have a game plan against one person, then the other person completely shuts you down because they don't fence the same. To answer your question, I would say trust is a big thing and –
[00:07:51] BW: Yes. You’ve obviously built up a lot of that trust, and that showed in Milan. So, I've seen a variety of fencing coaching styles when I've just been sitting on the sideline, observing, and there are some people who are calm and uplifting and very measured and focused. I kind of put you in that category. Then, there are some coaches who are, maybe, more aggressive. They're yelling. They're screaming. When you see that, when you see a coach just yelling their brains out on the sidelines, what's crossing your mind at that point?
[00:08:16] AS: I don't adopt to that style. I never did. I never wanted to be the coach who yelled and screamed. I wanted to have a presence but not to yell and scream. My idea of an athlete who is prepared and ready to go out there and get results is someone who doesn't need a whole lot of conversation. You know yourself better than I know you. What you do best and what you don't do.
As a coach on the side, I'm giving you the blueprint of what I think should happen and what I think is happening. It’s up to you to work your way out of the situation, to fit the puzzle of what's happening. If I'm yelling that to you, all these little details to you, to me, it distracts the goal. It distracts what you should be doing and you're the one that's in your head, and you're the one that knows what to do, and I think that when I started coaching, that was my strategy from day one. I got criticized by that a lot. Other coaches from some of my peers, found out that was the best way for me, and I got the most out of my students from coaching that way.
[00:09:16] BW: Interesting. You talk about knowing what's in the fencer's head and what they need in that moment. That makes me think of the one-minute break in sabre, right? It's one fencer has eight points, and now it's your chance to talk to that fencer. How do you approach that opportunity, that moment? Because it's not a ton of time that you get with your athlete.
[00:09:36] AS: Good question. When I fence, we didn't have a touch break. You have to figure it out from touch 1 to touch 15. What needs to happen in that time is 110 complete focus on what they need to be doing. What they don't need from me is for me to be telling them every single detail of what they need to do, because every single detail of what they do might be going on in their head. They could have the formula and that they could have it mapped out. What I could be telling them, I throw them off.
So, I have that trust in them, and it doesn't always work out. I'm not saying that I have all the answers. But most of the time, it's either a close bout or they win, because they know what to do. In that moment, it's more of a teaching moment than, “This is what you need to do to win.” It’s a teaching moment for the buildup of the next competitions. I think, in my opinion, it should be little talk and more focus.
[00:10:29] BW: That's really interesting. I want to switch gears a little bit to talk about the team aspect, and this is something that actually you and I have talked about before, which is that you want to create a cohesive team. You don't just – a bunch of good individuals. Obviously, the results were there in Milan. Tell me about that day, the disappointing loss in the semi-finals, followed by the win in the bronze medal match, a huge moment for American Fencing in general and for men's sabre. What was going through your head during that bronze medal bout?
[00:11:01] AS: In that bronze medal bout, we had a plan. The thing I like about our team is that everyone's open-minded, and everyone is able to execute actions and not be afraid to execute. Win or lose, you get the touch or you don’t. It’s the execution that is the most important because by executing actions, you get to understand and receive information for later situations. In that bout, the beauty of me watching them is how everyone did their job. In that bout, everything that we discussed was executed properly. When I say in that bout, I'm talking about the bout against France, the bronze medal. Even when we were down, I was so confident. We were down at one point by seven. I was still confident because, for me, it wasn't about how much we were down, but what we were doing to come back. They all did a fantastic job.
The bout with Korea, we didn’t execute as much as we would want it to, but it felt like it was still a good bout. They fought hard, and it just made us that more prepared for the bronze medal match.
[00:12:04] BW: That's kind of the opposite of what intuitively I would think, which is that the guys would be bummed out, and they'd say, “Hey, how are we going to get back, get our heads right to fence again”, in what, what was it, 30 minutes later, 45 minutes later? But you're saying that actually worked as motivation to help them go out there and grab that medal.
[00:12:21] AS: Not only that, but every single bout in that day was motivation for the next bout because they just got more comfortable executing well. Now, I'll be honest with you. We didn't know what was going to happen. All we knew is that we had a great training camp in France, and we discussed a lot about fencing. We've talked about different preparations and what to do, and the experience of that team, it’s the first time everybody has been together for that world championship.
Eli was just amazing. We did a lot of video, and him and I would bounce off ideas on what we do against different teams. His experience in fencing is like something that I've never seen before. So, that helped too.
[00:13:01] BW: Yes. Going into the tournament, one could say that Team USA would not have been a medal favorite. But, obviously, thanks to your coaching and Eli's leadership and all four of the guys fencing so well, you guys did come home with a bronze medal. When you're watching that medal ceremony and when you're up there with the guys, getting hugs, and congratulations, what's going through your head at that point, knowing all of the work that you’ve put in to help get us there?
[00:13:29] AS: What’s funny, Bryan, I still don't believe it. But I'm just like, “Well, I cannot believe that just happened.” Just looking at the team that we had, it was amazing of what they've accomplished. The teams that we had before, they were all strong. No one expected this team that we had to do what we did. Because, again, it's a new team. It's not the same team as the Olympics in 2020 or 2016. I had a lot of faith in them. I had a lot of faith in them because I know the depth, and I know the material that we had on that team. So, all of these guys out there fencing on what they can do. I see them at their worst and I see them at their best. I knew that if we all came together and worked together, we could have won the gold medal match.
But to answer your question, it’s just amazement, watch the smiles on their faces. It reminds me because we were at a World Cup, I forgot which one it was. I think it was like Madrid or something. We were in the team event. We played the bronze. But the funny part about that situation was nobody had USA warm ups. Everybody was like calling people, getting pants, getting two shirts, getting USA stuff. People were taking pants off in the stand and throwing them down. So, it was just funny. I honestly thought about that. I was like, “Wow, these guys.” They came from not expecting to here we are now, so that was so beautiful.
[00:14:34] BW: Yes. I imagine that everybody will have their warm up when the season starts back up here in November. So, let's talk about the road ahead because right now, Team USA and then sabre is in Olympic-qualifying position. What's it going to take to stay there – before we even get to talking about Paris? What's it going to take to stay in either the top four or be number one in our zone to ensure that we get a full squad of men's sabre at the Olympics?
[00:15:00] AS: Well, I would say now we're in a very, very good position. We scored at some of the competitions. That only gets us that much closer as a team to the Olympics. If they continue to be who they are as individuals, and fencers, and working together in a cohesive manner, I don't think we have any problem qualifying the team. Not only that but, I think that we are a force in Paris to win a medal.
I remember Eli was so upset when, it was something on FIE. They put something out on teams to watch in Milan, and he didn't see Team USA up there. He was like, “You know what? We got to do this, guys. This is crazy, how they don't have us. We're being written off.” I think that was a little bit of motivation too.
[00:15:38] BW: That's some bulletin board material right there. What about the Paris plan? What is on the road map there to get the squad to peek at the Olympics at that perfect time?
[00:15:51] AS: So, it’s a difficult question to answer only because we don't even know who's going to be going. We have so much depth in our top 12. It could be either one of the guys, and I have faith in everybody. I think anybody who's on the travel team has a possibility, has great potential to bring the Team USA to a medal round and possibly win a gold medal. It's all about working together and doing a lot of team training sessions and making sure we're all on the same page, and making sure that we all speak in the same language. Because one of the hardest things about being a coach is an action may be different or worded different than mine. So, making sure that everybody understands what this is and what that is, so we can all help each other.
It's hard to compete against teammates. The job is almost complete in terms of getting the qualifying USA team to now it's about who's going to be on that team. It’s a difficult time because everyone [inaudible 00:16:45] and at the same time trying to be teammates. So, I've been through it. I know what it's like. It's a different kind of mindset. I think that, again, if we can get past that and be a team and not individuals of who are going to qualify, which is really hard, by the way, I think that we will be very prepared to go into Paris.
[00:17:04] BW: Yes. On the one hand, the system for team selection is totally fair and objective. But on the other hand, that means that number four might have more points than number five. So, they get to go as a replacement athlete. But that doesn't mean they're the better fencer necessarily. It just means that they had a better season. It's just harsh, at times, to think about that we only can take three plus one to the Olympics for any weapon.
You talk about the depth that we have in men's sabre right now, and we saw that at play at Junior and Cadet Worlds as well. But I'd love to hear as we close here your advice for a youth sabre fencer who is saying, “I want to be in that top 12. I want to make an Olympic squad someday.” What's the path to get there as Y8, Y10, Y12 fencer who's finding some success in men's sabre already?
[00:17:53] AS: I would say experience. Don't rush the process. Experience. Listen to your coach. Watch videos. US fencing is unique because you have top-level fencers who are there that you can compete with. They can be in your pool. Watch them. Watch and learn. That's how I did it. When I qualified for the Olympics and even before that, when I started to get good, I would watch all the top-level fencers and try to see what they did, how they moved.
So, I think the biggest thing I would say is don't rush the process. Of course, everybody wants to be good. Everybody wants to be good, yes. But you need time to develop. I see a lot of really, really young kids who are wanting to go to these World Cups and compete, and that’s nice. Maybe go to somewhere close and watch a World Cup. You know what I mean? Like watch a World Cup, different when you're watching on a video. It sounds different. The feel is different. The [inaudible 00:18:48] on the strip is different. I know it's hard for some, but I guess what I'm trying to say is just don't rush the process and learn. Learn, a lot of learning, a lot of experience. Because at the end, it'll all pay off, and you can go as far as you want.
[00:19:01] BW: Just like you had a lot of fencers to look up to, finding a role model like yourself is a great suggestion as well I would imagine. Find someone who you can kind of model your career after. You mentioned the World Cup. We've got a Junior Men's Sabre World Cup that the US will be hosting at some point in January, right? So that might be a lower-cost option for getting out there and watching some high-level fencing, right? Shameless plug.
[00:19:26] AS: I'm so excited about that. I'm so excited about us having a World Cup in the US.
[00:19:30] BW: Yes. We need more of those, for sure. Yes, 100%. Well, Akhi, I know you're busy and you have a lot more ahead of you. So, I just want to thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. It's been fun watching you coach, and I know our paths will cross again. But best of luck this season, and we'll be cheering on men's sabre as you guys conquer the world.
[00:19:48] AS: Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you very much.
[00:19:50] BW: Thanks.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[00:19:52] BW: Thanks for listening to First to 15, the official podcast of USA Fencing. We'll be back with our next conversation in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, you can stay up to date on all the latest fencing news by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. If you liked this podcast, please help us grow and reach more people by leaving us a rating or review. Until next time, I'm Bryan Wendell, and I hope to see you real soon out on the Strip. Bye.
[END]